Day Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 tl;dr early morning brain fart ramblings which may be best ignored. I won't be offended. Do we have a squad of players that are not good enough or simply not performed? I ask because last summer the expectation was for a top 6 finish, these expectations rapidly declined once Pearson found his seat in the dugout. Were the initial expectations that this squad could overachieve under Pearson or that this squad was good enough to finish top 6? I ask because we're now in May and "sell them all, not good enough" "bang average", which is fine, we can all change our minds on players, absolutely nothing wrong with it, I'm just a little confused now. We could finish the season in 8th place, 8 points off the top 6 which when you consider the start we had and a bang average squad that is pretty impressive is it not? Just throwing this out there that if this squad can do that, maybe we should look to build on that and not scrap the lot of them and try and buy another top 6 team in one summer? Let's say we do sell the lot of them, bring in a new squad, expect the top 6 like many already do before the transfer window has already opened for Rowett... What happens if that squad doesn't make the top 6, 60% of you already have set a minimum expectation of Rowett. Sell the lot of them? Didn't we want stability or does that only apply to the manager because we've sacked a few recently? Rowett has full control of transfers, no recruitment team, you have your scapegoat, there is no confusion, being left in the dark. Surely Rowett will have to go if he doesn't meet your minimum expectations of next season, remember 60% of you are looking for top 6 regardless of who we sign. Does that give Mel the freedom to pull the trigger again or will Rowett be totally blameless and the bunch of players he bought have bad attitudes, can't keep it in their pants and we need to sell the lot of them? Hopefully by this point a few of you are nodding and see where I'm going with all this. You see I think this squad is better than bang average, I personally think we have underperformed for various reasons and the players are largely at fault for this. Whilst Pearson may have tried to change too much too soon that's no excuse to give up completely which is how it looked, and yes I'm hugely pissed off. I've thought about it, sell the lot of them, even recently after Brentford, I didn't post it as I knew in 48hrs I would have calmed down and returned my toys to my pram. Change 1 manager or change a full squad of players. Stop and think about for a second. Leicester under Ranieri this season, the turn around when he left. Chelsea under Mourinho, Hazard anonymous. Now? exactly. Conte came in and tweaked it. Tweaked it. I think I'm not alone in thinking this which you will try and deny, I think you know this squad is capable of top 6 and that's why we are so frustrated and angry right now. The summer will help that pass. Bit of sand between the toes, Cleethorpes is nice this time of year. Now I'm not saying this squad is perfect, it does require tweaking here and there but not the scrap everything and start again which is bonkers. The amount of posts I've seen where it's keep a combination of Carson, Ince, Hughes, Thorne only then expect Rowett to go out and buy 20 odd players then make top 6 is ridiculous. Let's put the axes down. Wag our fingers in disgust at the players and let them know this was not acceptable, clean slate next season, we go again. If you do keep hold of your axe at least drop your minimum expectations of top 6 next season and allow for a season of the unexpected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Day Posted May 2, 2017 Author Share Posted May 2, 2017 ^^^ What a load of ******** ^^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curtains Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 Evolution not revolution required I'd say. In Rowetty I trust Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metalsheep02 Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 If we were to strip out the Pearson games then our average points per game over the other 36 games would have got us top 6 if taken over a 46 game season, so the players we have are good enough. I was shocked to find this to be correct given the terrible run at the end of Mac 2. For me what needs to be sorted is the chronic inconsistency which has seen the team simply not turn up on a game to game basis. This has been going on for 3 seasons now so whilst I don't see that wholesale change is needed we maybe need to do something to change that characteristic of the team. Linked to this is the inability to break down massed defensive ranks in home games. I remember Clement moaning about this (but seemingly having no idea how to deal with it) and we have generally failed on this again this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r4derby Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 There's a lot more Rams fans who agree with this sentiment - we're the ones who either don't say anything after a disappointing performance, stay off forums altogether or try and talk others round. The 'loud minority' are the ones who have been bought up on football as this 'win now' business, this mentality that if something isn't perfect you just reset. Mel hasn't helped this in the past 2 seasons either. My opinion, this squad is good enough, but to use Rowetts phrasing, is unbalanced. We need a couple of players, not expensive, not exciting skilful players (we have those) but steady, head strong, leaders. The ones who allow our playmakers to make plays. A lot of fans have also been saying this for a couple of seasons. I live in hope that by August/September 1st we have a Derby squad that we still recognise, but a new found mentality and resistance that is completely new to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jagerbob Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 Before I go into what I think, I heard a football on 5 analyst probably say, if you overhaul a squad and change too much then you need a longer bedding in period, and you need even more time to see the results, than if you change it by a couple of players at a time. By that logic at least then selling the whole squad is of course counter productive. The scrap everyything brigade, only come out and post on twitter, Facebook and post to Radio Derby without having the guts to call up, they only ever keyboard warrior when we lose, or give away goals in the last minute.... they do it out of frustration, thats all. You dont get a peep from them on a good winning run when it happens. In the very early days of McClarens 2nd season I used to think some of the squad arent performing, then by the end I had changed my mind to actually they arent any good if they cant adapt to a system without a holding midfielder and without Martin. The Pearson regime suprised me how bad we were, but didnt surprise me that certain individuals were very poor when asked to play a different way. I think what surprised me more was the winning run McClaren managed this season when we managed all those clean sheets. You answer your own question when you say tweak it. Its all about balance for me, getting a system that works, and sticking to it. So when bad luck and the odd bad resuilt sets in and you go a couple without a win, you dont forget what got you the best performances to start with. McClaren in his time was very good at correcting some things when he arrived , but also when the rot set in, he seemed to forget what made us good in the first place and when the side needed direction to get it back on track he and the side stopped doing the good things, the team needed serious directioon and he didnt provide it. I hope to god that this is what will set Rowett apart and he and the side will do the right things and remember what they are to get that message across to the players. Before you ask I am referring to high energy in certain areas of the pitch, counter pressing at the right times and in the right numbers, and a higher tempo. Im really glad to hear Rowett isnt a fan of the patient posession style, because lets face it, this season is hasnt worked at all. Its been sideways passes only playing infron of the opposition. Each game i saw the stats for this season had us almost always winning the posession stats, and almost always having very few shots on goal. 1 or 2 per game, then we wonder why we dont score! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jagerbob Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 3 minutes ago, r4derby said: My opinion, this squad is good enough, but to use Rowetts phrasing, is unbalanced. We need a couple of players, not expensive, not exciting skilful players (we have those) but steady, head strong, leaders. The ones who allow our playmakers to make plays. This is spot on, and I agree entirely. I would also add that if you dont have the strong enforcer types in central midfield, then you play to the strengths of what you do have. Which is what Rowett did in the 2nd half of Forest away in his first game. He had Nugent, Vydra Rusell chasing down their defenders in posession which enabled us to win the ball in their half and become a goal threat ourselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 The season we finished 3rd, a lot of our players (helped by several quality loans) had the season of their lives (Bryson for example). We were on top, top form and unlucky not to go up. Since then there have been flashes of brilliance but nothing on a sustained level. Therefore, it is my opinion that we overachieved that season and there is still a lot of work to be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dimmu Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 40 minutes ago, David said: Do we have a squad of players that are not good enough or simply not performed? IMO not performing. I'm propably only one here who thinks our squard doesn't need summer clear out. Just couple players in, few more can go. Rowett's stats so far W 4 D 2 L 2. 14 points in 8 games, average of 1,75. Not only point wise, we surely are performing better under GR. 1,75 would make it about 80 points, that's playoff form. Quality CB in, add fit Forsyth and Thorne... They will make us defensively much better and we can fight for automatic promotion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 30 minutes ago, maxjam said: The season we finished 3rd, a lot of our players (helped by several quality loans) had the season of their lives (Bryson for example). We were on top, top form and unlucky not to go up. Since then there have been flashes of brilliance but nothing on a sustained level. Therefore, it is my opinion that we overachieved that season and there is still a lot of work to be done. I don't think we overachieved. The players played well as a team and to their full potential. When bits fell off, the team fell apart, not totally but to drop us a level. As for group mentality well that's what I'm hoping that's what Rowett can get right. We need to be greater than the sum of our parts, but we also need resilience plus we have to want it. Do we want it enough? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toddy Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 We seem to be a team of individuals the only other team like us in that respect are Newcastle -but they had a manager that could gel a team out of expensive individuals. Are we unbalanced yes, completely. Blame Pearson, yes but you would also have to blame Mac for his last 11 games he was in control as they were as bad as Pearson's and points accrued in those games about the same. How many managers have we had and most have have had the same players? Get the spine of the team right and then build around them. Ours is clearly wrong. Brighton and Newcastle have been top 2 for 8 months for a reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Day Posted May 2, 2017 Author Share Posted May 2, 2017 1 hour ago, toddy said: Are we unbalanced yes, completely Show me a club that isn't. I bet even Newcastle and Brighton fans will point to areas they feel isn't right in their team. (This isn't aimed at you Toddy) How many clubs go through the summer without bringing in players? Building a football team isn't as easy as some make out, the building never ends, every signing is a gamble and some work out whilst others don't. That's football. You can nail every position but players sometimes like managers just don't fit. It's often forgot that players are not robots, yes they are paid handsomely but they are still young men, young men that have to move their families, away from friends, build up new relationships on and off the pitch. Even with hindsight from this season, Abraham, Hourihane, Knockaert could have come to this club and turned out to be duff, they are not bad players, the fit just isn't right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jono Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 There is not much wrong with what we have. Sort the injuries out, lose a couple of under achievers, add a bit of spirit and we are all but there. The difference between boom and slump is 5% The sort of things that work are the arrival of Nugent, Realising that Butters can play a reasonable DM role and BJ is better up the pitch. And Cyrus Christie remembering he can cross. This squad, if fit, motivated and given the right instructions can get promoted. We might struggle to survive but that is for another day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jagerbob Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 1 hour ago, David said: Even with hindsight from this season, Abraham, Hourihane, Knockaert could have come to this club and turned out to be duff, they are not bad players, the fit just isn't right. Spot on, Brad Johnson, Butterfield, Blackman and Vydra were top players before they came to us! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiddingsRam Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 3 hours ago, curtains said: Evolution not revolution required I'd say. In Rowetty I trust Rowett said that after the game on Saturday! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Day Posted May 2, 2017 Author Share Posted May 2, 2017 28 minutes ago, RiddingsRam said: Rowett said that after the game on Saturday! Thought it was too good for Curtains to come up with Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archied Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 4 hours ago, David said: tl;dr early morning brain fart ramblings which may be best ignored. I won't be offended. Do we have a squad of players that are not good enough or simply not performed? I ask because last summer the expectation was for a top 6 finish, these expectations rapidly declined once Pearson found his seat in the dugout. Were the initial expectations that this squad could overachieve under Pearson or that this squad was good enough to finish top 6? I ask because we're now in May and "sell them all, not good enough" "bang average", which is fine, we can all change our minds on players, absolutely nothing wrong with it, I'm just a little confused now. We could finish the season in 8th place, 8 points off the top 6 which when you consider the start we had and a bang average squad that is pretty impressive is it not? Just throwing this out there that if this squad can do that, maybe we should look to build on that and not scrap the lot of them and try and buy another top 6 team in one summer? Let's say we do sell the lot of them, bring in a new squad, expect the top 6 like many already do before the transfer window has already opened for Rowett... What happens if that squad doesn't make the top 6, 60% of you already have set a minimum expectation of Rowett. Sell the lot of them? Didn't we want stability or does that only apply to the manager because we've sacked a few recently? Rowett has full control of transfers, no recruitment team, you have your scapegoat, there is no confusion, being left in the dark. Surely Rowett will have to go if he doesn't meet your minimum expectations of next season, remember 60% of you are looking for top 6 regardless of who we sign. Does that give Mel the freedom to pull the trigger again or will Rowett be totally blameless and the bunch of players he bought have bad attitudes, can't keep it in their pants and we need to sell the lot of them? Hopefully by this point a few of you are nodding and see where I'm going with all this. You see I think this squad is better than bang average, I personally think we have underperformed for various reasons and the players are largely at fault for this. Whilst Pearson may have tried to change too much too soon that's no excuse to give up completely which is how it looked, and yes I'm hugely pissed off. I've thought about it, sell the lot of them, even recently after Brentford, I didn't post it as I knew in 48hrs I would have calmed down and returned my toys to my pram. Change 1 manager or change a full squad of players. Stop and think about for a second. Leicester under Ranieri this season, the turn around when he left. Chelsea under Mourinho, Hazard anonymous. Now? exactly. Conte came in and tweaked it. Tweaked it. I think I'm not alone in thinking this which you will try and deny, I think you know this squad is capable of top 6 and that's why we are so frustrated and angry right now. The summer will help that pass. Bit of sand between the toes, Cleethorpes is nice this time of year. Now I'm not saying this squad is perfect, it does require tweaking here and there but not the scrap everything and start again which is bonkers. The amount of posts I've seen where it's keep a combination of Carson, Ince, Hughes, Thorne only then expect Rowett to go out and buy 20 odd players then make top 6 is ridiculous. Let's put the axes down. Wag our fingers in disgust at the players and let them know this was not acceptable, clean slate next season, we go again. If you do keep hold of your axe at least drop your minimum expectations of top 6 next season and allow for a season of the unexpected. Yes This squad is capable of top 6 ,, that's not the problem , the problem is that this squad is capable of churning out the most turgid runs of form, capable of pretty much downing tools and letting the club ,fans and themselves down if things aren't how they want them , this squad is capable of bottom 3 relegation season as shown under Pearson , this squad are capable of totally buckling under when in the position to push on for success , there has to be change this summer as this squad is not one that any manager can depend on and trust , just how much of that is turnover of playing staff and how much can be changed by a manager being able to motivate them is down to the judgement of rowett and his job may well hang on him getting that question right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiddingsRam Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 6 minutes ago, David said: Thought it was too good for Curtains to come up with Got the feeling he was trying to claim credit for it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedSox Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 16 minutes ago, RiddingsRam said: Got the feeling he was trying to claim credit for it Who? Rowett? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColonelBlimp Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 1 hour ago, jagerbob said: Spot on, Brad Johnson, Butterfield, Blackman and Vydra were top players before they came to us! Blackman? Agree with the rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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