Myth busting

[DerbyMark]

20 hours ago, i-Ram said:

I have seen in recent days a number of posts referring to our 'classic' 433 system, and that we should now be buying players that fit 'our' system.  The reference point being the 2013/14 season.

But were we really that good in 2013/14? Yes l know we were by far the better team in our 'cup final' vs QPR, and played really very well against Brighton in the playoffs, and a few other games during that season, including a couple when Nigel was in charge. But there were a number of games that season we were just plain average, and pinched odd goal victories. We really were not so great most of the time. Wasn't it just nice to be something other than woeful for a while?

l think it's time to look forward and leave that season behind. Gary Rowett doesn't need to benchmark himself against that season, or be restricted by that system. For those of us who have been around a few years, we know there are far better seasons (and teams) he should be aspiring towards.

 

 

 

Well apart from Conti at Chelsea who changed it to a back 3 and then all of a sudden they just clicked... I don't think there's any magic formula or formation.

Much of it boils down to the quality of the players at your disposal, who if their good enough professional's should be able to play in any system.

Which is probably why it worked for Conti...

[RodleyRam]

18 hours ago, uttoxram75 said:

The 13/14 team was superb, rarely do you see such sumptuous football in the championship so a more direct or safe system does not excite.

The fact that such entertaining football owed so much to journeymen like Buxton, Eustace, & Ward, freebies like Martin, bargain basements like Bryson, Russell & Forsyth, coupled with academy kids like Hughes and Hendrick, made it all so much sweeter.

Wholeheartedly agree and it also got the fans excited which spurred the players on. I'm not sure exactly how it's come about because we've probably all watched more dross hoof ball than we have sexy football but I would say our club identity is strongly linked with exciting football.

The fact that 13/14 played largely decent football that we enjoyed watching and getting behind is undoubtedly part of the attraction from lots of corners to recreate it and play that style/formation. After all we were one piece of good finishing away from promotion with a cracking foundation to build.

From that point we've lost our way but its not surprising to me that many of us think a return to 13/14 way of playing would at least see us getting back onto some kind of track consistent with the club's overall (perceived) culture. Not saying it's the only way but its better than the shambles of the last 2 years.

[cannable]

19 hours ago, uttoxram75 said:

The 13/14 team was superb, rarely do you see such sumptuous football in the championship so a more direct or safe system does not excite.

Fulham this year are the only other Championship team that have made me pur quite like our 13/14 team.

Bournemouth would have too, but I under-appreciated them at the time as we were in direct competition.

[barnsley ram]

20 hours ago, uttoxram75 said:

The 13/14 team was superb, rarely do you see such sumptuous football in the championship so a more direct or safe system does not excite.

The fact that such entertaining football owed so much to journeymen like Buxton, Eustace, & Ward, freebies like Martin, bargain basements like Bryson, Russell & Forsyth, coupled with academy kids like Hughes and Hendrick, made it all so much sweeter.

 

 

 

yes thanks nigel clough

[lrm14]

On 26/03/2017 at 19:27, i-Ram said:

I have seen in recent days a number of posts referring to our 'classic' 433 system, and that we should now be buying players that fit 'our' system.  The reference point being the 2013/14 season.

But were we really that good in 2013/14? Yes l know we were by far the better team in our 'cup final' vs QPR, and played really very well against Brighton in the playoffs, and a few other games during that season, including a couple when Nigel was in charge. But there were a number of games that season we were just plain average, and pinched odd goal victories. We really were not so great most of the time. Wasn't it just nice to be something other than woeful for a while?

l think it's time to look forward and leave that season behind. Gary Rowett doesn't need to benchmark himself against that season, or be restricted by that system. For those of us who have been around a few years, we know there are far better seasons (and teams) he should be aspiring towards.

What 'myth' are you hoping to bust with this? If it's the idea that the 13/14 team wasn't as good as everyone remembers then that's utter rubbish. We were an excellent side that season and under Mac, probably the 2nd best side in the division behind Leicester (had we not had two very unlucky performances against Burnley or Mac from the start of the season, we'd have finished ahead of them). We played the best football I've seen in my lifetime, scored the most goals in the division, played a free-flowing attacking game and equalled our highest finish in the championship since 1996. You're not busting a myth because there is no myth, we were a genuinely good side.

Since then we've had several things set us back be it injuries, managers having their heads turned or managers trying to tear up the roots of an already well-functioning system. With all the changes we've seen to Derby in the past few years in terms of how we play, the type of players we bring in and how we approach games, it's no doubt that as we go backwards as a club the fans want us to revert to our more successful model of 13/14. It's really not rocket science. Every manager we've had in the past few seasons has had the tools to build on what we had then, but they've chosen to take a different root with very little success (incidentally the only time we've looked as excellent as we did in 13/14 was Wassall against Hull away, reverting to how we used to play).

I'm not saying the only way to play is how we did in 13/14, that would be silly. But it's lunacy to say we weren't as good as we think we were in that season and it's not difficult to realise why people want to revert to that style after several years of misdirection with no results. Personally I've always been about the style of football we play. I remember the season when we went up under Billy Davis and we were a very ugly side to watch who ground out a lot of 1-0 wins. The feeling of winning at Wembley was incredible but watching us that season was nowhere near as pleasurable as it was in the 13/14 season. That season changed my outlook so much that to be frank I don't really care whether we go up or not, more whether we try to do it the right way. That's my opinion though and I don't really expect anyone to share that view, neither do I expect Rowett to manage us in a way that will satisfy that view. I don't expect Rowett to play amazing football, I don't expect him to get us up in his first season. All I want is for us as a club and fanbase to give him time to build, hopefully bringing some stability back to Derby rather than this circus-like chopping and changing.

 

 

[RamNut]

The formation became the problem.

last time schteve was here, the practice of splitting the centre backs wide apart and pushing the full backs up, left us wide open when we lost the ball.

more recently 433 with a lone striker who fails to link with the midfield - and becomes isolated - meant we struggled to get going.

the whole team was too stretched out. We ended up slinging high balls out wide or going sidewards and backwards because we couldn't find the no9. 

The system was rumbled.teams sat back and let us pass it around to no effect. We desperately needed an archie gemmill to break forward with the ball. None of our central midfielders could do that. The perverse result was that our only real threat came from a a left footed right winger who had no other  thought but to cut inside and shoot himself. The epitome of a non-functioning team.

the supposedly brilliant coach had no answer. No plan b.

his substitutions begun to have something of the air of a reckless gambler putting everything on red. 

We didn't always play that system. 

I'd much rather we start with what works - a two man strike-partnership.

Nugent and vydra seem to have some potential.

 

Build off that.

[ram1964]

23 hours ago, 1of4 said:

I don't care if we play

442

433

352

5221

5212

1111111111

13231

42121

4231

I just want us to play well, compete and hopefully win.

 

Just noticed a major failing with all these formation we are only playing with ten men.?

Well thats more than weve played with most of the season?

[archied]

the formation is not the vital thing in terms of creating good football and lots of people have been blind to that , they keep calling either for a change of formation or a return to the formation we had last time we were playing decent football i.e. 4/3/3 

also I keep seeing the line that people don't really care if we ever / never get promoted as long as we play good football ,, again bolacks, a sucessfull team or a good to watch team ? Sorry but it's not a must choice ,you can have both,

whats the solution to all this? 

Balance , balance , balance , there has to be the balance/ blend between grit ,determination and bloody hard work but also talent and flair ,, get that right and you have lift off ,, get that right and when players cross the white line they will wiggle formation around and cover for each other to win games ,

a good manager builds that kind of team and then they deliver for him , 

 

[Comrade 86]

On 3/26/2017 at 22:56, uttoxram75 said:

The 13/14 team was superb, rarely do you see such sumptuous football in the championship so a more direct or safe system does not excite.

The fact that such entertaining football owed so much to journeymen like Buxton, Eustace, & Ward, freebies like Martin, bargain basements like Bryson, Russell & Forsyth, coupled with academy kids like Hughes and Hendrick, made it all so much sweeter.

Yes, yes and yes. 

[TimRam]

Burleys team was better to watch.

[Tombo]

Yeah. We really were that good. A lot of those one goal wins were against teams like Boro, Brighton, Watford and Bournemouth. Teams who went on to upper Championship/lower Premier quality.

I don't see why that has any relevance to 4-3-3 though? It was the players that got those results and they played in the formation that best suited them at the time. We will stop playing 4-3-3 when it's no longer the best formation for the players we've got. And actually, I'm going to switch on myself and agree with you, it's probably at the point now where it doesn't suit so perfectly anymore with the way we've changed the squad since then.

Formations are just numbers on a page. As a blank canvas they mean absolutely nothing. It's the players you put in them that matters. Not just the quality of the players in there but whether they suit the jobs you're asking of them. 

[Grantona]

On 3/27/2017 at 19:00, lrm14 said:

What 'myth' are you hoping to bust with this? If it's the idea that the 13/14 team wasn't as good as everyone remembers then that's utter rubbish. We were an excellent side that season and under Mac, probably the 2nd best side in the division behind Leicester (had we not had two very unlucky performances against Burnley or Mac from the start of the season, we'd have finished ahead of them). We played the best football I've seen in my lifetime, scored the most goals in the division, played a free-flowing attacking game and equalled our highest finish in the championship since 1996. You're not busting a myth because there is no myth, we were a genuinely good side.

Since then we've had several things set us back be it injuries, managers having their heads turned or managers trying to tear up the roots of an already well-functioning system. With all the changes we've seen to Derby in the past few years in terms of how we play, the type of players we bring in and how we approach games, it's no doubt that as we go backwards as a club the fans want us to revert to our more successful model of 13/14. It's really not rocket science. Every manager we've had in the past few seasons has had the tools to build on what we had then, but they've chosen to take a different root with very little success (incidentally the only time we've looked as excellent as we did in 13/14 was Wassall against Hull away, reverting to how we used to play).

I'm not saying the only way to play is how we did in 13/14, that would be silly. But it's lunacy to say we weren't as good as we think we were in that season and it's not difficult to realise why people want to revert to that style after several years of misdirection with no results. Personally I've always been about the style of football we play. I remember the season when we went up under Billy Davis and we were a very ugly side to watch who ground out a lot of 1-0 wins. The feeling of winning at Wembley was incredible but watching us that season was nowhere near as pleasurable as it was in the 13/14 season. That season changed my outlook so much that to be frank I don't really care whether we go up or not, more whether we try to do it the right way. That's my opinion though and I don't really expect anyone to share that view, neither do I expect Rowett to manage us in a way that will satisfy that view. I don't expect Rowett to play amazing football, I don't expect him to get us up in his first season. All I want is for us as a club and fanbase to give him time to build, hopefully bringing some stability back to Derby rather than this circus-like chopping and changing.

 

 

Two "unlucky" performances against Burnley in 2013/14?? You must be joking!!

Burnley completely outplayed the Rams in the 3-0 result at your place - could have been 5 or 6.

You played better at Turf Moor but deserved only a draw at best. It could have been a thrashing if Martin had been sent off early on for deliberately elbowing Shackell in the face. It was some kind of justice that he was sent off later in the game.

[lrm14]

15 hours ago, Grantona said:

Two "unlucky" performances against Burnley in 2013/14?? You must be joking!!

Burnley completely outplayed the Rams in the 3-0 result at your place - could have been 5 or 6.

You played better at Turf Moor but deserved only a draw at best. It could have been a thrashing if Martin had been sent off early on for deliberately elbowing Shackell in the face. It was some kind of justice that he was sent off later in the game.

My mistake the win at our place was deserved.

It's probably not even worth discussing the game at your place if you think that Martin deliberately elbowed Shackell and his sending off was 'justice'. 

[GerryDaly]

Formations don't win trophies. 

 

 

Management does.