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Don't Sack Mac


Leicester Ram
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Worst thing we could do.

The team is playing absolutely god awful right now, this is truly horrendous but it's what's been coming to us for years. We've had two managers a season, we've bought anything with a pulse, we've changed styles and now we have a squad that is a cluster **** of 4 managers different ideas.

Is it really a surprise that we're going to finish mid-table? 

Tonight (Brighton A) for example:

Keogh is injured so we don't have a ball playing CB. Not even Shackell is fit, so we're stuck with Baird at CB with Pearce. Not only is that pairing un-dynamic, it's not at least as robust as Shackell and Pearce would be.

Johnson is injured and of course Thorne is out, so there's not a single physical midfielder we can call on. de Sart, who clearly isn't ready for the responsibility or demands of playing DM in the Championship is our only option. 

You can't leave him on his own so you have to put one of Butterfield, an unfit Bryson or an out of form Hughes out of position at DM.

The only decent winger we have properly fit is Ince, so you have to play Vydra, a low on confidence ST on the wing. That's already an us dynamic team without much pace, so Nugent's in at CAM.

Then we get to ST itself, when there's not a striker in there who can really hold the ball up and even if they did, no ones really getting close to them. So Bent's the best option, he's the most likely to win a header out of the lot.

You could argue we could have made moves in January, but really it would have been more of the same. Overpaying for average players on long contracts who are no better than what we've already got. I commend the club and McClaren for not dishing out on any ***** in January, it was a stance that we'll benefit from in the long term.

That's what we've come to, that absolute *****, unfunctional team made up of players that could be decent. But they're not, because there's no long-term plan or identity at the club at all, and the playing staff reflect that. It's not McClaren's fault and it's not the players fault. Some of them really shouldn't be here, it's a shame for the players like Ince, Hughes and Keogh who should be here.

But, there are the glimmers of a plan, signs that we're going to turn a corner. McClaren's key to all that, if there's one manager that's had a distinctive plan and identity 

-Martin and Hughes have signed new contracts

-McClaren's got Ince playing like he had him playing last time, he looks like a PL player

-George Thorne is due back and even if he isn't, there's a summer to find another physical DM to compete with Johnson.

Does anyone really think if you gave McClaren a core of Martin, Ince, Hughes, Thorne, Keogh and Carson and a summer to sort out the rest of the team that he couldn't bury us in the championship top 6 next season? He could give us more than just an identity, he could give us a really good one. If it wasn't for ridiculously unlucky injuries I think he'd have taken us up last time, I'm confident he can do it this time.

I believe in McClaren, I really do, I think it says a lot about him that he had this squad and this season anywhere near the play-off's, because it really is a mess.

The last thing we need right now is to change manager again, it's only going to make this mess worse. There's a core of players here that McClaren can build around, he's already got the most important players for the system here, the spine of a team.

He's got the best chance at making the last few seasons actually mean something instead of putting us right back where we started when Clough took over, a mid-table team full of overpaid players that don't fit together.

McClaren's been dealt a bad hand this season, but I think he could kickstart this club again in the summer.

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When mcclaren was appointed, I said that anybody expecting a repeat of 2013/14 was delusional. The squad, despite the money spent, is significantly worse that the one he inherited last time. We needed to muddle through this season and have a proper sort out in the summer. If anything, mcclaren has made a rod for his own back by winning those games and raising everyone's expectations. If we'd gradually climbed the table to where we are now, there'd be no major problem, given the start we had. But because we flirted with the playoffs for a few weeks, all of a sudden it's a sacking offence to not finish top 6.

The good news, is that adding Martin, Thorne and Forsyth to the team fixes a lot of the issues were having - ball retention up front, compose in midfield, tracking midfield runners, extra height for defending set pieces and so on.

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3 minutes ago, hintonsboots said:

David Wagner ? His team dismantled Brighton just over a month ago. 

Yeah he's German come American, we need to expand our scout network or hack into Southampton's phone network, that Mauricio Pochettino ain't bad :thumbsup:

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I haven't really got an opinion on McClaren either way.  Happy for him to stay, happy if we get a replacement that turns out to be the next Pochettino or Wagner - not that you can guarantee that of course.  

What has to stop though is chopping and changing managers twice a season, overpaying for players and buying players only suited to one role/system.  Whoever is in charge next season has a big job on their hands, we need to move some players on and bring some young, hungry and ambitious players in.  

We seem to have spent a lot over the past few seasons though and I dunno how close we are to FFP limits, I worry that we're gonna be stuck in a rut for a couple of seasons until we can mount a proper challenge again.

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I've been the harshest advocate against the return of McClaren and was fiercely criticized during the recent happy time. Fair enough. Unfortunately McClaren is playing us for fools. He isn't Derby, despite the 3/4 length ram coat from the Megastore, or the black and white tie. All the kicking water bottles, the faux anger, the claims that he knows what is wrong and can fix it through hard training. He doesn't have a f'ing clue. Never did.

As far as Morris is concerned, anyone who makes a mistake is human, but anyone who makes the same mistake twice is a moron. Welcome to DCFC. The last three years, since Brighton at home and George Thornes goal, have been a total disappointment. I'm not falling for it again. Someone else can have my seat until things radically change.  

Fair play for Ramage for calling it tonight. He has found the courage to tell it how it is, now that he knows a good number of players have no future with Derby. Better late than never.  

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We need to go back to basics and start again and honestly if we could wind the clock back to Nigel Clough, but with Mel in charge, I'd take it.

We need to dismantle this squad, every player is up for sale, including the messiah that is Will Hughes.

None of them have it about them to take the game by the scruff of the neck, so can all be sold.

We need an emphasis on youth, promoting much of the u21s sprinkled with a few additions, and each transfer window we bring in a Shaun barker type fee player until we build into a capable promotion chasing team.

Rip it up, start again.

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30 minutes ago, Leicester Ram said:

Worst thing we could do.

The team is playing absolutely god awful right now, this is truly horrendous but it's what's been coming to us for years. We've had two managers a season, we've bought anything with a pulse, we've changed styles and now we have a squad that is a cluster **** of 4 managers different ideas.

Is it really a surprise that we're going to finish mid-table? 

Tonight (Brighton A) for example:

Keogh is injured so we don't have a ball playing CB. Not even Shackell is fit, so we're stuck with Baird at CB with Pearce. Not only is that pairing un-dynamic, it's not at least as robust as Shackell and Pearce would be.

Johnson is injured and of course Thorne is out, so there's not a single physical midfielder we can call on. de Sart, who clearly isn't ready for the responsibility or demands of playing DM in the Championship is our only option. 

You can't leave him on his own so you have to put one of Butterfield, an unfit Bryson or an out of form Hughes out of position at DM.

The only decent winger we have properly fit is Ince, so you have to play Vydra, a low on confidence ST on the wing. That's already an us dynamic team without much pace, so Nugent's in at CAM.

Then we get to ST itself, when there's not a striker in there who can really hold the ball up and even if they did, no ones really getting close to them. So Bent's the best option, he's the most likely to win a header out of the lot.

You could argue we could have made moves in January, but really it would have been more of the same. Overpaying for average players on long contracts who are no better than what we've already got. I commend the club and McClaren for not dishing out on any ***** in January, it was a stance that we'll benefit from in the long term.

That's what we've come to, that absolute *****, unfunctional team made up of players that could be decent. But they're not, because there's no long-term plan or identity at the club at all, and the playing staff reflect that. It's not McClaren's fault and it's not the players fault. Some of them really shouldn't be here, it's a shame for the players like Ince, Hughes and Keogh who should be here.

But, there are the glimmers of a plan, signs that we're going to turn a corner. McClaren's key to all that, if there's one manager that's had a distinctive plan and identity 

-Martin and Hughes have signed new contracts

-McClaren's got Ince playing like he had him playing last time, he looks like a PL player

-George Thorne is due back and even if he isn't, there's a summer to find another physical DM to compete with Johnson.

Does anyone really think if you gave McClaren a core of Martin, Ince, Hughes, Thorne, Keogh and Carson and a summer to sort out the rest of the team that he couldn't bury us in the championship top 6 next season? He could give us more than just an identity, he could give us a really good one. If it wasn't for ridiculously unlucky injuries I think he'd have taken us up last time, I'm confident he can do it this time.

I believe in McClaren, I really do, I think it says a lot about him that he had this squad and this season anywhere near the play-off's, because it really is a mess.

The last thing we need right now is to change manager again, it's only going to make this mess worse. There's a core of players here that McClaren can build around, he's already got the most important players for the system here, the spine of a team.

He's got the best chance at making the last few seasons actually mean something instead of putting us right back where we started when Clough took over, a mid-table team full of overpaid players that don't fit together.

McClaren's been dealt a bad hand this season, but I think he could kickstart this club again in the summer.

I applaud the sentiment, but describing a back four with Pearce in it as robust is taking the urine. Quite happy to have eyes on the man when he's in front of him, only to go to sleep when the forward makes a run, as decent forwards tend to, Baird looks like John Terry in comparison.

De Sart, who in your own words is not able to fulfil his role through lack of physicality and experience is left exposed again, who bought him to the club and keeps playing him?

Not only that, but we have to sacrifice another players role to hold his hand!

Macs had two attempts at replacing George Thorne, and has come up with De Sart and Mascarell, which doesn't fill me with confidence going forward.

Replacing Eustace would be a start!

I don't mean to sound negative, I want Mac to work out and take us up, but he needs to start showing that not only does he see the problems, but he can address them in the summer.

 

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14 minutes ago, MackworthRamIsGod said:

We need to go back to basics and start again and honestly if we could wind the clock back to Nigel Clough, but with Mel in charge, I'd take it.

We need to dismantle this squad, every player is up for sale, including the messiah that is Will Hughes.

None of them have it about them to take the game by the scruff of the neck, so can all be sold.

We need an emphasis on youth, promoting much of the u21s sprinkled with a few additions, and each transfer window we bring in a Shaun barker type fee player until we build into a capable promotion chasing team.

Rip it up, start again.

I'd back this if we completely fail next season, but right now I think it would be stupid to give up like that.

Naive to say we could just integrate academy players like that next season. You'd lose all the bandwagon fans by November.

 

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Where to begin?

when we sacked schteve, i thought we should have kept him and carried on despite misgivings over the newcastle shenanigans, the tactical shambles from the latter part of that season, the chopping and changing of the back four , and the inability to recognise the need to drop Lee Grant.

clement was an unknown who did some good things - sorted out the keeper and the back four and took us top- but is this where the slow over playing at the back started? is this where we lost our tempo?  He was undermined and didn't have the status, the support or the experience to deal with Mel. 

Wassall was a total clown and Redknap an almost comical symbol of how absolutely bizarre the decision making was becoming. If Tommy Docherty had been brought in in a wheelchair i wouldn't have been surprised any more.

Pearson was a shocking appointment.By now Mel was losing credibility in terms of his judgement and direction, and Sam Rush had just reversed all the changes he introduced when nigel clough was sacked.  By the time Pearson went it was definitely a case of  better the devil you know and i was glad to have schteve back and pick up from where we left off. And in fairness soon things were massively improved, but with results and performances going into steep decline, the nagging doubts about the system of playing a lone ineffective striker, two wingers, and a deep holding midfielder - in a totally stretched formation - soon returned. Then all the keezy, pearcey, bairdy nonsense, the bottle kicking, and a sense of deja vu.

Right now i'm on the fence. Like most people i recognise that endless change and churn is damaging, and there are precious few candidates out there. But on the other hand, i now doubt that schteve has the tactical awareness or the leadership qualities to build a reliable and successful team to take us forward. there is also the strange decision to reappoint chris evans to consider and the doubts about our ability to recruit successfully.  Finally the academy seems to be producing not a lot, whilst becoming a home for all the washed up rejects that don't make it as players but join an ever expanding coaching staff. 

All we can concentrate on at the moment is the next match. The small matter of Forest away.

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2 minutes ago, RamNut said:

Where to begin?

when we sacked schteve, i thought we should have kept him and carried on despite misgivings over the newcastle shenanigans, the tactical shambles from the latter part of that season, the chopping and changing of the back four , and the inability to recognise the need to drop Lee Grant.

clement was an unknown who did some good things - sorted out the keeper and the back four and took us top- but is this where the slow over playing at the back started? is this where we lost our tempo?  He was undermined and didn't have the status, the support or the experience to deal with Mel. 

Wassall was a total clown and Redknap an almost comical symbol of how absolutely bizarre the decision making was becoming. If Tommy Docherty had been brought in in a wheelchair i wouldn't have been surprised any more.

Pearson was a shocking appointment.By now Mel was losing credibility in terms of his judgement and direction, and Sam Rush had just reversed all the changes he introduced when nigel clough was sacked.  By this time Pearson went it was definitely a case of  better the devil you know and i was glad to have schteve back and pick up from where we left off. And in fairness soon things were massively improved, but with results and performances going into steep decline, the nagging doubts about the system of playing a lone ineffective striker, two wingers, and a deep holding midfielder - in a totally stretched formation - soon returned. Then all the keezy, pearcey, bairdy nonsense, the bottle kicking, and a sense of deja vu.

Right now i'm on the fence. Like most people i recognise that endless change and churn is damaging, and there are precious few candidates out there. But on the other hand, i now doubt that schteve has the tactical awareness or the leadership qualities to build a reliable and successful team to take us forward. there is also the strange decision to reappoint chris evans to consider and the doubts about our ability to recruit successfully.  Finally the academy seems to be producing not a lot, whilst becoming a home for all the washed up rejects that don't make it as players but join an ever expanding coaching staff. 

All we can concentrate on at the moment is the next match. The small matter of Forest away.

Endless change seems to have worked out for Leeds.

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1 hour ago, Leicester Ram said:

Worst thing we could do.

The team is playing absolutely god awful right now, this is truly horrendous but it's what's been coming to us for years. We've had two managers a season, we've bought anything with a pulse, we've changed styles and now we have a squad that is a cluster **** of 4 managers different ideas.

Is it really a surprise that we're going to finish mid-table? 

Tonight (Brighton A) for example:

Keogh is injured so we don't have a ball playing CB. Not even Shackell is fit, so we're stuck with Baird at CB with Pearce. Not only is that pairing un-dynamic, it's not at least as robust as Shackell and Pearce would be.

Johnson is injured and of course Thorne is out, so there's not a single physical midfielder we can call on. de Sart, who clearly isn't ready for the responsibility or demands of playing DM in the Championship is our only option. 

You can't leave him on his own so you have to put one of Butterfield, an unfit Bryson or an out of form Hughes out of position at DM.

The only decent winger we have properly fit is Ince, so you have to play Vydra, a low on confidence ST on the wing. That's already an us dynamic team without much pace, so Nugent's in at CAM.

Then we get to ST itself, when there's not a striker in there who can really hold the ball up and even if they did, no ones really getting close to them. So Bent's the best option, he's the most likely to win a header out of the lot.

You could argue we could have made moves in January, but really it would have been more of the same. Overpaying for average players on long contracts who are no better than what we've already got. I commend the club and McClaren for not dishing out on any ***** in January, it was a stance that we'll benefit from in the long term.

That's what we've come to, that absolute *****, unfunctional team made up of players that could be decent. But they're not, because there's no long-term plan or identity at the club at all, and the playing staff reflect that. It's not McClaren's fault and it's not the players fault. Some of them really shouldn't be here, it's a shame for the players like Ince, Hughes and Keogh who should be here.

But, there are the glimmers of a plan, signs that we're going to turn a corner. McClaren's key to all that, if there's one manager that's had a distinctive plan and identity 

-Martin and Hughes have signed new contracts

-McClaren's got Ince playing like he had him playing last time, he looks like a PL player

-George Thorne is due back and even if he isn't, there's a summer to find another physical DM to compete with Johnson.

Does anyone really think if you gave McClaren a core of Martin, Ince, Hughes, Thorne, Keogh and Carson and a summer to sort out the rest of the team that he couldn't bury us in the championship top 6 next season? He could give us more than just an identity, he could give us a really good one. If it wasn't for ridiculously unlucky injuries I think he'd have taken us up last time, I'm confident he can do it this time.

I believe in McClaren, I really do, I think it says a lot about him that he had this squad and this season anywhere near the play-off's, because it really is a mess.

The last thing we need right now is to change manager again, it's only going to make this mess worse. There's a core of players here that McClaren can build around, he's already got the most important players for the system here, the spine of a team.

He's got the best chance at making the last few seasons actually mean something instead of putting us right back where we started when Clough took over, a mid-table team full of overpaid players that don't fit together.

McClaren's been dealt a bad hand this season, but I think he could kickstart this club again in the summer.

Bang on mate....this,this and this.

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Got to agree with a great deal of this. What we've lacked is a long term vision for the club. Like him or not, whether he was responsible for it or not the club's overall vision under Clough was right. McClaren followed in and developed that further. It made sense. Felt like we were heading in a direction even if we weren't quite making it in the league table it felt like sustainable progress.

Since the mac1 fall from grace though we've seen such horrific deviation from that trajectory. We have no identity right now. None. I don't know what we're trying to achieve as a club. There's no stability. We're a shambles. we have thrown money at it without any consideration of how it fits with the plan. we have a misfit squad seemingly bereft of confidence with no real sense of direction. Quite how mac2 got us close to the playoffs is a mystery. That run did probably more harm than good as it raised expectations that will never be delivered with the club lacking direction.

We lack cohesion and stability. What we need is for mac2 to stick around, work hard and have some very frank conversations with everyone involved about where we're heading and whether they want to be part of it.

We as fans have to answer for our share of this mess too. Let's not think that our bemoaning a lack of ambition, clamouring for change everything we lose hasn't had its own impact. We are partly responsible for our lack of direction and destruction of confidence. We too need to take a look in the mirror and think about what we want our club to be aiming for, manage our expectations and not freak out when we lose or proclaim ourselves champions elect when we win.

AS a club we need to take a long hard look at ourselves right now and decide how we're going to use the summer to work out where we're heading, what structures we needs and what players we need to deliver this vision.

We have to start this process now and we have to put our faith in mac2 to lead this change.

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Watched the first half last night then switched off.  I don't want to see my Rams this way, I'd prefer to remember the team that trounced Brighton in the playoffs not so long ago, that played with a spring in its step, that made us proud and played great football.

Mac is the right guy for the job but he needs to grow a pair, have a damn good clear out and if we buy then buy quality not quantity.  It's not a popularity contest Steve, we all know you're a nice bloke, but either you or someone else needs to be able to administer a b******ing when needed, if only once a season. 

The teams that have gone up and stayed up in recent years have all been greater than the sum of their parts, and Brighton are in that tradition at the moment.  We need that mentality next season, plus a spine of Carson/Thorne/Martin together with pace on the flanks, of which we have plenty.

I'm not convinced that Butterfield/Johnson/de Sart are better than Thorne/Hughes/Bryson.

Neither am I convinced that Bent/Vydra/Camara are better than Martin/Russell/Ince.

If it's a 4-3-3 again then surely it's a matter of deciding which 2 players fit each position?

If everyone is fit then we have, in theory,

Christie/Baird/Hanson          Keogh/Rawson          Shackell/Pearce          Fozzy/Olssen/Lowe

Hughes/de Sart/Elsnik                 Thorne/Johnson/Butterfield                 Bryson/Anya/Bennett

Ince/Camara                       Martin/Bent/Nugent/Blackman/Vernam                   Russell/Vydra

I seems that we are overstaffed with central strikers and wide midfielders.  At the back, which 8 from those 10 make the cut?  In the middle, which 6 from 9?  And up front, which 6 from 9?

Who if anyone is coming up from the much vaunted Academy?  Is it necessary to spend money just because we have some? And since the policy of signing supposedly big time Championship players from other clubs has produced mixed results, is it time now to cut the squad size, have faith in the Academy players and keep a war chest in reserve in case we need to spend really big next season (say in January) to get across the line in 2nd place?

Time now to give the younger players a run to see what they can do, then we'll know what they've really got and decisions can be made.  Then give everyone a proper rest & a proper pre-season with a coach who is proven to be among the very best.  A new start for everyone, blank sheet of paper etc.  Now we just have to see out the fag end of a bizarre season that lurched from disaster to excellence and then to mediocrity.

LR2

 

 

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