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Summer 2017


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Baird has got to be given an extra year.

I would call him Mr Steady this year but that is not giving him enough credit.

He has done his job without question, added to that two world class through balls in the last few weeks both resulting in goals. If only Baird was younger because he is getting better and better.

Why pay a few million and 20 odd K a week for a full back cover when we have one for free.

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Out: Roos,Shackell, Lowe(loan out depending on Forsyth's fitness), Johnson, Bent, Vydra, Blackman,Weimann, Russell(to help with ffp)

In: Young ball playing centre back, proper defensive midfielder who is technically good when Thorne is injured, powerful box to box midfielder, top quality left winger, a link left winger in the mould of a Dawkins.

So end up with this:

Goalkeepers: Carson, Mitchell

Right backs: Baird(done enough to warrant a new deal), Christie

Centre backs: Keogh, Pearce, New centre back, Rawson

Left backs: Forsyth, Olsson, maybe Lowe if Forsyth isn't his old self

Cdms: Thorne, New CDM, Hanson

Creative centre mids: Hughes, Butterfield, Elnsik

Box to box centre mids: New Centre mid, Bryson

Right wing: Ince, Camara

Left wing: New out an out winger, new link left winger, Anya

Strikers: Martin, Nugent, Zanzala/Vernam

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2 hours ago, Sparkle said:

I am with you on most of that but the main problem moving on the likes of Blackman Vydra shackell and Johnson is the huge size of their wages and contracts with mainly only premiership or relegated prem teams being able to afford them.

Could have a point there. However Shackell and Johnson are decent players at this level and I believe we would find interested parties willing to acquire them. Could be trickier with Vydra and Blackman though.

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1 hour ago, McLovin said:

Out: Roos,Shackell, Lowe(loan out depending on Forsyth's fitness), Johnson, Bent, Vydra, Blackman,Weimann, Russell(to help with ffp)

In: Young ball playing centre back, proper defensive midfielder who is technically good when Thorne is injured, powerful box to box midfielder, top quality left winger, a link left winger in the mould of a Dawkins.

So end up with this:

Goalkeepers: Carson, Mitchell

Right backs: Baird(done enough to warrant a new deal), Christie

Centre backs: Keogh, Pearce, New centre back, Rawson

Left backs: Forsyth, Olsson, maybe Lowe if Forsyth isn't his old self

Cdms: Thorne, New CDM, Hanson

Creative centre mids: Hughes, Butterfield, Elnsik

Box to box centre mids: New Centre mid, Bryson

Right wing: Ince, Camara

Left wing: New out an out winger, new link left winger, Anya

Strikers: Martin, Nugent, Zanzala/Vernam

Largely agree with you here @McLovin, although I'd keep Russell over Camara for cover on the right wing and I'd be tempted to get a new right back who has more legs than Baird but is calmer on the ball than Christie and let Baird go largely because of his age.

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6 hours ago, Seth's left foot said:

Russell being called deadwood :blink:

game of opinions I suppose.

Wouldn't dream of letting russell go....When Martin returns,he and bryson will be lethal together.

And I know it's not fashionable but Baird has been awesome in partnership with ince...

I'll trust Mac on his signings and outgoing players though...

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3 hours ago, brady1993 said:

I think what's important to acknowledge before we discuss which players should or shouldn't be moved, is what are we trying to build towards ? and what is needed in each player role in the team to make that work ?

I'm going to make the assumption that McClaren is going to build towards something akin to the team he had previously i.e. a team built around controlling the game that opens teams up through quick exchanges of passing when in possession and a team that looks to aggressively win the ball high up the pitch when out of possession. 

Disclaimer: I'm basing the following views on what we have seen of players so far and full well acknowledge that some could 'come good' eventually given game time.

With that said I'd like to go through each position, outline what I feel is required in the role and who in the squad does or doesn't fit the bill.

GK

The goalkeeper in our system needs to be comfortable going for large stretches in the game without any action, it's important that their 'short' distribution (i.e. rolling, throwing, short kicks and simple short passes) is quick and accurate so we can quickly build from the back. They also should be comfortable receiving the ball at their feet so is an option to go back to for the defence. Ideally they'd be quick off their line in order to compensate for that we are likely to be playing a high line in defence.

To be honest I think GK is the least of our worries with Carson being ever dependable this season and we have bigger issues to look at before thinking of improving here.

Fullbacks

We need energetic full backs who can quickly get up and down the line. This is so that we have width in attack and it allows the wide forwards to drift in field where they can do more damage to opposition and it means the full backs can quickly get back into position when we lose possession. You also want them to be relatively technically astute to help contribute to our general passing play.

On the left side, I'd say we are pretty well covered in this regard what with Forsyth, Olsson and Lowe all pretty much fitting  the bill. Personally I'd look to keep all three, what with Forsyth recovering from a long term injury and Olsson and Lowe seemingly prone to picking up niggles.

On the right side, Baird has done a good job since coming in the side but personally I think we need somebody who can providing more energy getting up and down the line (obviously not Baird's fault) plus at 35 we can't realistically expect to get much more football out of him, so I'd probably let him go at the end of the season. Christie on his day really is some player, and his direct running terrifies defences. However he can be inconsistent, can make wrong decisions about when to carry the ball and when to pass and there are question marks over whether he is the best fit to play behind Ince. In my opinion I'd try to look for a player who is essentially a younger Baird, somebody who has Baird's calmness in and out of possession but has the energy levels to get up and down the line. With Christie becoming cover.

Centre backs

We look like we will building from the back quite a lot and therefore it's paramount that both centrebacks are comfortable in position and can quickly move the ball on. It'd also be useful if they have a yard of pace because we will be looking to play a high line.

Keogh is one of the most important players in the squad right now as the only true ball-playing centre back and the more we shift back to looking to control games, the more important Keogh will be what with his distribution and his ability to carry the ball from defence. Pearce has formed a very good partnership with Keogh, is proving ever dependable in this position, his leadership really adds to our back line and he tends to move the ball well enough. If (and this is a big expensive if) we can find somebody similar to Pearce who is more comfortable on the ball and is perhaps a tad quicker, it could be worthwhile going for them. Shackell whilst a good defender, doesn't fit our style of play when in possession and should be moved on in the summer. I haven't seen much of Rawson to make a fair appraisal of him, so will leave that to others. If we can't find a player better than Pearce (and again it's highly likely we don't find one at this level) then I'd look to bring in a young technically astute centre back who we can develop and will provide cover.

CDM

His primary role is to shield the back 4, recycle possession and retain possession. As such he needs to be positionally disciplined as to not get drawn into the play but be able to anticipate when to make a tackle. Needs to be comfortable in possession and be able to move the ball quickly and accurately because he will very frequently receive the ball of the back 4 and off attacking players when attacks fizzle out. It's important that he can retain possession effectivley because he will the base from which most of our attacking play starts. Ideally he'd possess great vision and the ability to pick a defense splitting pass ala Thorne but this is secondary to who his primary role.

A lot depends on whether Thorne comes back the same player as before and how quickly he gets up to speed again. If he's fit and firing he is the absolute ideal player for the position. Personally, I feel Johnson (whilst has done a good job over the past few months) lacks the technical ability required to play the role with how we ultimately want to play and simply doesn't retain the ball well enough and I'd probably let him go if a decent offer came in for him. Hanson I feel lacks the tactical discipline for the role and lacks calmness in possession to execute the role well and the summer could be time to move him on, however there's a chance he could develop whilst at Wigan. If Thorne is fit and firing, I think we would be fine going forward with him as first choice with Johnson/Hanson. If he isn't (it might still be worthwhile doing this anyway and letting Johnson go) then it's paramount that we bring in a player who is adept at the role. 

CM

The two midfielders have two overlapping but different roles. One will primarily be the link-up player/playmaker, looking to pick up space and keep the attacking momentum going through probing passes. The other will primarily be the attacking midfielder looking to burst with or without the ball beyond the defensive line in order to provide penetration and extra goal threat. Both need to be technically good, clever, very comfortable with the ball at their, can pick a pass, have energy to buzz around exploiting space and be able to aggressively press when out of possession.

I feel well covered for the playmaker role, with this being Hughes' forte and Butterfield being more than good enough cover/competition (despite being recently maligned). Our hand might be forced if Hughes decides to move onto better things and we will then have to reassess.

For the attacking midfielder, I think this a place we could really look to improve as we only have Bryson who can really fulfill this role well and given his age and that he seemingly keeps picking up knocks we should certainly be looking to bringing in a new face in this area.

Wide Forwards

Need to be comfortable drifting inside to support the centre forward, need the pace to burst into pockets of space, need to be comfortable in possession and the dribbling ability to beat a man to create attacking opportunity. Also need to be decent finishers to chip in with goals and have the energy levels to get back and support the defence. Better if they are 'wrong-footed' to more readily allow them to drift inside.

Ince's position on the right is completely nailed on and he is ideal for the position. Russell has historically played his best football on the right and so I would certainly keep him as cover behind Ince for the right, whilst he has the ability to play on the left. The left is where we have bigger problems as for me we have no player currently in the squad who is a great fit for the role. This is one area that if we are going to spend money on should be here because it would give us an extra dimension going forwards. I'd keep Anya for his versatility and in particularly his ability to cover the left side. I'm still firmly on the fence regarding Camara, who has shown ability in flashes but I'm far from convinced. After that I'd be looking to move on Wiemann and Blackmen, on as I just don't they provide enough for the squad and room needs to be made for incomings.

Centre Forward

The absolutely key and number one requirement in this role is link-up play ability because this what allows your midfield to advance and start to take control of the play in the opposition half. Without a striker who can link to the midfield you will struggle to take control of the game and impress your playstyle on your opponent. After that the usually things required of a striker apply such as being a good finisher. It'd also be useful if they have the energy levels to pressure the backline

What with Martin's return we will be more than well equipped in the area, with Martin possessing the best link-up ability in the league. Hopefully Nugent will provide ample cover/competition for Martin whilst being an option to bring on with Martin when chasing a game. Whilst Bent has been doing an ok job he is far from ideal in the role and Vydra has demonstrated little capability at adapting to it, so I'd look to move both on in the summer. Could be worth bringing in a young striker who fits the profile of the role to look toward the future and provide extra cover.

TLDR;

Outs - Baird, Shackell, Johnson (if a decent offer comes in), Hanson (depending how he develops at wigan), Blackmen, Wiemann, Bent and Vydra. 

Ins - An energetic RB who is comfortable in possession (a 'young Baird'), a young technically good CB, a CDM as cover/competition for Thorne (or first choice if Thorne doesn't come back as good), an attacking CM, a left wide forward, Martin.

Cracking analysis Brady. Lots of detail and really thought through. I agree with 99% of that but I am not ready to get rid of Vydra yet. He doesn't fit our system but he is a very good footballer. Yes, if we can get close to our money back but failing that I'd want to work with him and see if he could be used elsewhere.

you know I like Hanson and feel he would benefit from being given a single position. It's only then we would see what he really has. 

I Respect Martin a lot for his guile (and his goals in our system) but remain concerned that our front line doesn't really have a killer 

I'd add that I want to see some academy players given more chances when there are injuries or cup games. There is talent there that needs to be explored in equal measure with the opening of the check book. 

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9 minutes ago, jono said:

Cracking analysis Brady. Lots of detail and really thought through. I agree with 99% of that but I am not ready to get rid of Vydra yet. He doesn't fit our system but he is a very good footballer. Yes, if we can get close to our money back but failing that I'd want to work with him and see if he could be used elsewhere.

Cheers @jono. I see what your saying about Vydra and to a large extent agree. He is certainly a talented player, one who I wish we could find a place for however so far he shown little sign to adapting to playing down the centre of a three and has been ineffectual when played there. We also seem to be trying him out wide a little on the left, which I could see working but he hasn't been effective as of yet when played there. Personally I think if we are still struggling to see where he fits in come the summer, it will be time to cut our losses with him and move on. With that said, if McClaren feels like he can be moulded into a role in the system given more time (perhaps what he needs is a pre season with McClaren), then I wouldn't be opposed to that. 

16 minutes ago, jono said:

you know I like Hanson and feel he would benefit from being given a single position. It's only then we would see what he really has. 

You could well be right regarding Hanson, that we he needs is time settled into a position. That's what I hope will be the case, because like most people I want to see academy players succeed. However my nagging suspicion is that his level is probably with a club towards the lower end of the championship because I don't see anything in his game to make him stand out.

19 minutes ago, jono said:

I Respect Martin a lot for his guile (and his goals in our system) but remain concerned that our front line doesn't really have a killer 

I'm not sure I fully understand the point you're trying to make here, can you elaborate a little ?

20 minutes ago, jono said:

I'd add that I want to see some academy players given more chances when there are injuries or cup games. There is talent there that needs to be explored in equal measure with the opening of the check book. 

I agree with this, personally I trust that McClaren will introduce them as and when they are ready. Also more opportunities may open up if the squad gets trimmed down and streamlined a little.

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2 hours ago, Woodley Ram said:

 

in powerful midfield runner, right back, winger and frontman and last but not least  a complete wild card who no one can figure out why? 

That's been part of our recruitment problem - bringing in players then wondering why did we do that? 

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1 hour ago, brady1993 said:

Largely agree with you here @McLovin, although I'd keep Russell over Camara for cover on the right wing and I'd be tempted to get a new right back who has more legs than Baird but is calmer on the ball than Christie and let Baird go largely because of his age.

Fair enough regarding Camara and Russell. Was a flip of a coin but leaned towards Camara because Russell flatters to deceive so many times, whilst Camara stretches the game with his directness and created space for others. The likes Butterfield got into the game more on Saturday when Camara came on because it meant he had more time of the ball as Newcastle were scared of Camara. But as you said Russell plays better on the right so maybe I'm being a bit harsh.

Some player suggestions for the positions I stated:

Centre back- Souttar?( McClaren scouted him when he went to Hearts and we were linked with him previously). Think he is injured atm though.

Cdm- Huddlestone

Box to box cm- Loftus cheek on loan

Link left winger- Alan Judge

Direct left winger- Ibe on loan?( seems out of favour at Bournemouth)

 

Those players wouldn't be too expensive to get either and most importantly they would fit the system 

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1 hour ago, McLovin said:

Fair enough regarding Camara and Russell. Was a flip of a coin but leaned towards Camara because Russell flatters to deceive so many times, whilst Camara stretches the game with his directness and created space for others. The likes Butterfield got into the game more on Saturday when Camara came on because it meant he had more time of the ball as Newcastle were scared of Camara. But as you said Russell plays better on the right so maybe I'm being a bit harsh.

Some player suggestions for the positions I stated:

Centre back- Souttar?( McClaren scouted him when he went to Hearts and we were linked with him previously). Think he is injured atm though.

Cdm- Huddlestone

Box to box cm- Loftus cheek on loan

Link left winger- Alan Judge

Direct left winger- Ibe on loan?( seems out of favour at Bournemouth)

 

Those players wouldn't be too expensive to get either and most importantly they would fit the system 

All good with the exfeption of Huddlestone. Tractor turns quicker.

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@brady1993

i think my feelings about Martin are that when we play to a precise recipe he delivers the goods without doubt, but following that plan through a season has problems. He isn't that adaptable to my mind, and some teams know how to play him too easily. Then add in the falling over stuff and it leaves me with mixed feelings. 

Good against certain types of team and when we all play to suit him which we did 13/14. We have evolved a bit and while I will be glad to have him back, I don't see him as a messiah. 

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2 hours ago, McLovin said:

Fair enough regarding Camara and Russell. Was a flip of a coin but leaned towards Camara because Russell flatters to deceive so many times, whilst Camara stretches the game with his directness and created space for others. The likes Butterfield got into the game more on Saturday when Camara came on because it meant he had more time of the ball as Newcastle were scared of Camara. But as you said Russell plays better on the right so maybe I'm being a bit harsh.

Some player suggestions for the positions I stated:

Centre back- Souttar?( McClaren scouted him when he went to Hearts and we were linked with him previously). Think he is injured atm though.

Cdm- Huddlestone

Box to box cm- Loftus cheek on loan

Link left winger- Alan Judge

Direct left winger- Ibe on loan?( seems out of favour at Bournemouth)

 

Those players wouldn't be too expensive to get either and most importantly they would fit the system 

I see your point about Camara stretching a game but my concern is can he do that from the start of the game against defenders who aren't tired and provide cover for his full back ? Some good suggestions there, I'd have qualms over Huddlestone because he seems to have let himself go a bit and will be on big wages and as much as it'd be nice I don't think we can realistically get both Judge and Ibe and can keep them both happy. It'd be ambitious but I do wonder if we could potentially snag Loftus Cheek on a permanent.

 

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31 minutes ago, jono said:

@brady1993

i think my feelings about Martin are that when we play to a precise recipe he delivers the goods without doubt, but following that plan through a season has problems. He isn't that adaptable to my mind, and some teams know how to play him too easily. Then add in the falling over stuff and it leaves me with mixed feelings. 

Good against certain types of team and when we all play to suit him which we did 13/14. We have evolved a bit and while I will be glad to have him back, I don't see him as a messiah. 

Can't remember the lad's name but a young Rotherham player was mentioned by some in last summers thread as a potentially younger quicker Martin. 

The other possibility is to develop a 2 up top as a plan b. However I think mac leans towards 433 as his favoured formation with 4231 in reserve. I cannot see how we could accommodate 2 up top with our crop of midfielders. 

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15 hours ago, jono said:

@brady1993

i think my feelings about Martin are that when we play to a precise recipe he delivers the goods without doubt, but following that plan through a season has problems. He isn't that adaptable to my mind, and some teams know how to play him too easily. Then add in the falling over stuff and it leaves me with mixed feelings. 

Good against certain types of team and when we all play to suit him which we did 13/14. We have evolved a bit and while I will be glad to have him back, I don't see him as a messiah. 

I understand where you're coming from but I have to disagree. You say that some teams know how to play him too easily, I'd argue you that if were true then the team and Martin wouldn't have so much success during that time period. Remember the wheels only fell off when Martin got injured and we lost all of our defensive midfielders. The only times teams got one over on us tactically was through some combination of a few factors namely; them playing in a negative manner and congesting the centre of the park, us having an off day (sometimes your just not at the races) or them being a similar quality team (e.g. middlesbrough). When we played well we were good against most opposition in the division and most opposition tried to shut us down with little joy. 

I think what you're missing but saying 'when we all play to suit him' is that in playing in a way that suits Martin, we play a style that suits the best players in the squad. Our best players play to their best abilities in a system revolving short, quick passing exchanges, dominating possession and taking the game to the opposition. Martin's link-up play facilitates that and allows us to get our clever midfield players into dangerous positions up the pitch, it's no surprise that Martin created more goal scoring opportunities than any other player in the squad in 2 of the past 3 seasons (the other season was 13/14 where Bryson and Ward created more chances than him). 

I disagree with that we've evolved since that time, in fact I believe the opposite is true and we've regressed significantly since McClaren left. We currently lack tactical cohesion in the squad and are having to fill in gaps in a system with players who aren't quite right for the roles they play (Bent upfront, Johnson in midfield, Baird at RB, Russell on the left and frequently having to go with a pairing a Hughes/Butterfield in midfield) and are heavily reliant on Ince to win games. The most evident problem is the sore lack of a forward who can drop deep and bring the midfield into the game, Martin may not be the messiah but he'd go a long way to fixing our issues going forward.

With all that said, we could well come out of this summer a much better side than we were previously under McClaren. We still have very talented players in the squad, we just need to bring the right types of players to fit what we are trying to build towards to restore that tactical cohesion. If we do this I believe we will have a little more flexibility than we had before whilst have a concrete 'plan A' because we have the likes of Nugent who can cover for Martin whilst offering something a bit different if we need to change a game (heck he could even play up top with Martin if needs must). We also have the option of shifting Ince centrally to play behind Martin which we didn't have the option we had before. 

 

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@brady1993

Your points are more than valid but it presupposes we have that one system the suits our players and the wheels fall off we don't use it. And without the holding striker we fail. I don't agree entirely with the cause and effect

Now if we do a Pearson and change everything over night it does fall apart. Dumb for a hundred reasons that we have seen all too painfully. I don't think our system depends on so fragile an element as one holding striker, and it doesn't !

I can't accept that we lack tactical cohesion any more than we did 2/3 years ago. Maybe we aren't as drilled but we are more flexible.

We are more or less in the same place and the same issues are often repeated. We don't move the ball fast enough. Some games we sit too deep and pass sideways. Whoever is the striker will suffer, he can't bring runners in the play unless he has the ball. Yes .. he does link play and drop deep better than Bent or Vydra .. they do stay too high up for our way of playing. but Martin is only dropping deep because he cant get the ball otherwise.  In this sense I sort of agree with you, but it is only half the story - having Martin resolves the problem SOMETIMES but not always.

Of more than equal importance to our set up is the quality and intent offered by the DM ... it isn't really Chris Martin that we are missing .. its George or John Eustace .. they are the playmakers who win a ball and play those raking forward passes that Martin CAN use. Johnson has done well shielding the back 4 but he can't or doesn't make the killer passes that other deeper lying players can ... ta daaaaa Chris Baird .. Why is Tom Ince on fire ? because he is getting fed. .... Feed Bent and Vydra then see what happens. If De Saart clicks more of our mids and strikers will get goals and the lack of cohesion will disappear with or without Chris Martin

I'd still be very happy to see the wardrobe in the line up ... jees when did we last have we had a 2 seasons running 20 goal man.

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Yes, dcfc fans Football Manager thread, love it!

GK: Carson / Mitchell / Roos

RB: Should be priority this summer. Baird running out of contract, Christie starts his last season. I'd be tempted to try to sell Christie and use +1 year option with Baird as a back up. New first choice in needed, Byram/Trippier calibre would be great.

CB: Keogh and Bucko (or someone similar who really can pass the ball) Pearce is fine as a back up, but if we want to see some slick passing like with Mac1, new CB is needed. Pearce/Shacks and Rawson starting their last seasons, sell if opportunity rises.

LB: Forsyth starts last season of his contract, which should be renewed. Hopefully breakthrough season for Lowe. Olsson is decent but should be offered chance to get first team football somewhere else.

DM: Thorne (contract ending season) and Johnson are fine. Loan Hanson somewhere, where he gets minutes. League 1 or even 2.

CM: Hughes backed with Butters is fine, Bryson should be back up for someone better. If David Edwards was younger...Loftus-Cheek would not only fit well, he would add some height among our midgets. Loan Elsnik to get proper games.

RW: Ince and Camara are fine.

LW: Anya as the other and would like to see new face here too. Sako would do. Russell's last year should be cashed out.

ST: Martin is first choice. Bent will be released, he has been already replaced with Nugent, who's unfortunately not even close being as good. Hard to get rid of Vydra and Blackman so they would add numbers up front.

Overall 24 players, IMO pretty optimal.

 

So trying to push actively out: Roos, Christie, Olsson, Russell, Weimann, Blackman, Vydra.

Sell without problem: Shackell, Pearce, Rawson, Hanson

We should add quality, not numbers like recent years.

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