Andicis Posted May 18, 2017 Share Posted May 18, 2017 5 hours ago, reveldevil said: It keep seeing this point, so have had a quick gander on the stats to see if they bear it out. Keep in mind I've not applied the most rigourous approach, just using Whoscored.com and a cut off date of the Wolves game when Cyrus got injured, without going into each game in detail seemed the easiest way, but it points out the direction of travel. Before Wolves assumed Christie, after Baird. I've also done the managers, who I'll start with. Lumping together goals and assists for ease of posting too, only league games apply. Pearson 0/9 games, nuff said. Powell 1/2. Mac 13/26, 50%. Rowett 4/9, given the smaller sample close enough to Mac. Now for the Baird/Christie comparison. Christie 2/15 Baird 16/31, slightly over a 50% strike rate, and a massive improvement on his contribution with Cyrus. I'll point out again these aren't guaranteed totally correct, but it certainly highlights the massive difference Baird has made to Ince, and what a Cockwomble Pearson really was. Wow, I hadn't realised quite how polarising this stat was. I was sure Ince was much better with the more defensive minded Baird, but it really tells a story with this stat. I think this just demonstrates to us how important Baird, or a Baird type player is to be played alongside Ince to maximise his potential and allow him to perform his best! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashz09 Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 We'd be mad to get rid of him. People saying he's not worth 5 million (Other teams saying that). The Ince a season or so back then fair enough but it's been great to see him progress so much. Scores,Assists and puts a shift in now it's great seeing him track back. Also I haven't seen him moan or strop like he used to he's literally improved everything I personally criticized him for. I's be very disappointing if we got rid of him especially if it was to another Championship Club.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 1 hour ago, Ashz09 said: We'd be mad to get rid of him. People saying he's not worth 5 million (Other teams saying that). The Ince a season or so back then fair enough but it's been great to see him progress so much. Scores,Assists and puts a shift in now it's great seeing him track back. Also I haven't seen him moan or strop like he used to he's literally improved everything I personally criticized him for. I's be very disappointing if we got rid of him especially if it was to another Championship Club.. There should be absolutely no circumstance in which Tom Ince goes to another Championship club. Premier League, fair enough. I understand the opportunity there for the player and the money we would likely get but it would be absolute madness to strengthen another club in this division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbo Ram Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 12 minutes ago, JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta said: There should be absolutely no circumstance in which Tom Ince goes to another Championship club. Premier League, fair enough. I understand the opportunity there for the player and the money we would likely get but it would be absolute madness to strengthen another club in this division. I would rather sell Hughes before Ince. Ince is the one creative spark we have which is highlighted in the stats, he has the ability to win a game with a bit of magic. The team needs to be built around him. To sell him, even for big money would be a massive mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Contain Nuts Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 Ince is our only creative spark because we've MADE him our only creative spark! Build the team around Ince? We already do to a degree! Good goalscorers (which is Ince's main ability) are not the people to build your team around. It's a common factor in teams who hover around midtable. I'm not saying he isn't a good player, or that he hasn't created anything for his teammates, but his creativity for others is sometimes disproportionate to the amount he sees of the ball. This idea that just because a player shines in a poor team means that he'll thrive in a better team is a myth. Look at Jordan Rhodes' contribution at Sheff Weds this season. In a team not built around his capabilities he's managed 3 goals in 20 appearances! Had they based their gameplan around giving him the ball as often as possible he'd probably have 20 goals, but the side would ultimately suffer from being so one dimensional. Remember when we scored 99 goals in one season and they were all shared around the team, every type of goal possible, flying in from all ranges, everyone involved, everyone confident? We didn't build around 'an Ince' to do that, but we used players of his ilk (Bamford, say... I'm NOT saying Bamford is better than Ince) correctly to utilise their ability to do something from nothing, and it worked... until bloody Wembley. ...and that enough rambling for one lunch break. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbo Ram Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 18 minutes ago, Coconut said: Ince is our only creative spark because we've MADE him our only creative spark! Build the team around Ince? We already do to a degree! Good goalscorers (which is Ince's main ability) are not the people to build your team around. It's a common factor in teams who hover around midtable. I'm not saying he isn't a good player, or that he hasn't created anything for his teammates, but his creativity for others is sometimes disproportionate to the amount he sees of the ball. This idea that just because a player shines in a poor team means that he'll thrive in a better team is a myth. Look at Jordan Rhodes' contribution at Sheff Weds this season. In a team not built around his capabilities he's managed 3 goals in 20 appearances! Had they based their gameplan around giving him the ball as often as possible he'd probably have 20 goals, but the side would ultimately suffer from being so one dimensional. Remember when we scored 99 goals in one season and they were all shared around the team, every type of goal possible, flying in from all ranges, everyone involved, everyone confident? We didn't build around 'an Ince' to do that, but we used players of his ilk (Bamford, say... I'm NOT saying Bamford is better than Ince) correctly to utilise their ability to do something from nothing, and it worked... until bloody Wembley. ...and that enough rambling for one lunch break. Ince stands out in a poor team, think how good he could be in a really good team...must keep him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comrade 86 Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 37 minutes ago, Jimbo Ram said: Ince stands out in a poor team, think how good he could be in a really good team...must keep him. Good point - this season he was pretty much the sole attacking threat and as such teams tried to mark him out of the game. Were our attacking threats spread a little more evenly, they'd not be able to double-team the lad and doubtless he could do even more damage. Or so the logic goes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sexydadbod Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 It's too simplistic to say that because he is playing well here that he will play well somewhere else at a bigger club. If that was the case then why hasn't it worked out for him previously? At a bigger club he'd have less of the ball, whereas here he is the stand out player and receives as much as the ball as possible. Almost like big fish in a small pond but if he goes to a bigger club, he'd have to mix it with other top players. He would have much less of the ball as the likes of Ritchie and shelvey would have a lot more of the ball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sexydadbod Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 And I would be surprised if he does well at Newcastle because he has shown in the past to struggle in teams with a clear structure. Ince needs to have a 'free role' in the team to get the most out of him. It's no surprise that Ince's best form came under McClaren at Derby and Holloway at Blackpool who both gave him a licence to go out and express himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannable Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 3 hours ago, Coconut said: Ince is our only creative spark because we've MADE him our only creative spark! Build the team around Ince? We already do to a degree! Good goalscorers (which is Ince's main ability) are not the people to build your team around. It's a common factor in teams who hover around midtable. I'm not saying he isn't a good player, or that he hasn't created anything for his teammates, but his creativity for others is sometimes disproportionate to the amount he sees of the ball. This idea that just because a player shines in a poor team means that he'll thrive in a better team is a myth. Look at Jordan Rhodes' contribution at Sheff Weds this season. In a team not built around his capabilities he's managed 3 goals in 20 appearances! Had they based their gameplan around giving him the ball as often as possible he'd probably have 20 goals, but the side would ultimately suffer from being so one dimensional. Remember when we scored 99 goals in one season and they were all shared around the team, every type of goal possible, flying in from all ranges, everyone involved, everyone confident? We didn't build around 'an Ince' to do that, but we used players of his ilk (Bamford, say... I'm NOT saying Bamford is better than Ince) correctly to utilise their ability to do something from nothing, and it worked... until bloody Wembley. ...and that enough rambling for one lunch break. Ince was made our only creative spark because the combinations to make our other attackers were broken. Bryson was barely fit anyway but missed Martin, as did Russell, with BJ being so bad on the ball the rest of the midfield had to remain deep and thus didn't provide the numbers… Ince isn't the beneficiary of the team being broken, he's been the one to keep it alive. I also think it's worth thinking back to when Wassall played Ince on the left but still gave him freedom. He became a left-footed Dawkins on steroids. Assists in team moves against Hull and Forest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simsdcfc Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 why would ince want to sit on Newcastle's bench n play the odd fa cup game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jono Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 I'd be incredibly sad to see him go. If we have ambition then players like Tom have to be in the mix. Right now he is a "star player" in an average side but to be a great side you need 2 things .. Team work and a level of quality above the norm. Tom is one of ours who meets and exceeds the specification. Very occasionally you can do a Greece and win a major trophy on team work alone but to keep the ball rolling you need quality. Tom has it. I have no doubt we could get promoted without Tom .. But to be stayers and progressors ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 1 hour ago, jono said: I have no doubt we could get promoted without Tom .. But to be stayers and progressors ? Buy them in when we get there. We need to get there first... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archied Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 6 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said: Buy them in when we get there. We need to get there first... Classic post ,,, plain simple logic ,,, I see far too many people totally obsessed with the idea that we have to build a premiership team/ squad in the championship ,,, we have to build/ buy a team that gets us promoted from this division i.e. Do the job in hand ,, for me that is what Rafa did best at Newcastle, he was not afraid to buy the best players for this level and leave worrying about the premiership until he got promotion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jono Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 8 hours ago, archied said: Classic post ,,, plain simple logic ,,, I see far too many people totally obsessed with the idea that we have to build a premiership team/ squad in the championship ,,, we have to build/ buy a team that gets us promoted from this division i.e. Do the job in hand ,, for me that is what Rafa did best at Newcastle, he was not afraid to buy the best players for this level and leave worrying about the premiership until he got promotion Yes and no ... Yes because it is logical but No because the temptation or trap when "buying the best players for this level" is that you end up with some over priced average players that end up being difficult to move on when you want to step up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BramcoteRam84 Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 Billy signed a team for the championship and look what happened there!! That said, i think football has changed now, the money involved in the premier league provides the opportunity for wholesale signings on promotion. Think a balance needs to be struck but we do need more physical championship players with a little bit of flair added, we've definitely had the balance wrong in past few seasons. As for Ince, quality player could make step up but if selling him releases funds for a rebuild I'm all for it. For me he still doesn't have the team at heart, he only works hard when we're playing well and on top, when things go against us, he gets stroppy and just goes round blaming other players (like when he was berating Olsson at Brentford following their second goal). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Scarlet Pimpernel Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 It is perfectly possible that we have to sell one of our prized assets to assemble the balanced team Rowett wants. We may have no choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PistoldPete2 Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 3 minutes ago, The Scarlet Pimpernel said: It is perfectly possible that we have to sell one of our prized assets to assemble the balanced team Rowett wants. We may have no choice. Is our team really that unbalanced? If shackell and forsyth are fit again our defence will be balanced IMO. Midfield and attack I agree the balance hasn't been right. But again, we have martin back too. I'm not sure that with those three back we will need such big changes, maybe two new players. There's plenty to get rid of its true but ince isn't one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanoakaram4life Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 Have you seen us this year? Yes our team is incredibly unbalanced! Too many number tens, too many powderpuff players, not enough battlers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rammieib Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 Don't get promoted selling your best players... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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