Are we a difficult club to manage?

[WhiteHorseRam]

11 minutes ago, Tony Le Mesmer said:

Derby are a club that have the resources and potential

 

 

I wonder how people on here would feel if 7th is our best position for this season? (i.e. that's all folks) ??

Looking at the Championship table you realise that it is all 'massive' old clubs/ex prem. (Preston, Barnsley, Brentford, Rotherham, Burton, Huddersfield excepted).

[BarrowRam]

I don't  think we are a difficult  club to manage. Yes we all have high expectations especially  with all the  money Mel has put into the club. There are a lot worse clubs to manage than derby. Just look down the road at forrest. 

[Wolfie]

4 minutes ago, WhiteHorseRam said:

I wonder how people on here would feel if 7th is our best position for this season? (i.e. that's all folks) ??

Looking at the Championship table you realise that it is all 'massive' old clubs/ex prem. (Preston, Barnsley, Brentford, Rotherham, Burton, Huddersfield excepted).

Obviously it would depend on if we finished 8th or 18th but for me, I could cope with it as long as the results under Mac's tenure would have given us a top 6 place if averaged out over the season....if that makes sense.

[Doodle]

Derby is a very easy club to manage. (1) sign big contract (2) get sacked after 3 months when it goes tits up (3) walk away with big  bag of compo and blame Mel. Easy peasy 

[Millenniumram]

I wouldn't say we're a particularly difficult team right manage all things considered. Of course after the recent decade of generally underachieving, the pressure for success considering our history and fan base is large as you would expect- however like all things this is relative considering the additional funds that any manager will get as well as the fact that it's easier generally to persuade players to join an ambitious club like ours.

I think it's all about the ability of a manager to handle pressure as to whether they're successful here, the funds here should enable any manager worth their salt to build a team that can get close to expectations, it's just whether the manager can recruit right, as well as crucially be able to coach our players into playing as a unit in a system and style of football to suit- that's where clement was let down IMO, the team was too unbalanced at times and the style of play wasn't suited to a promotion chasing championship team.

That said he made us much more solid and controlling, so I actually think he's a good shout at Swansea as someone to sort out their problems- however the way they've been playing recently it's certainly a harder job than he had here...

[Tony Le Mesmer]

36 minutes ago, WhiteHorseRam said:

I wonder how people on here would feel if 7th is our best position for this season? (i.e. that's all folks) ??

Looking at the Championship table you realise that it is all 'massive' old clubs/ex prem. (Preston, Barnsley, Brentford, Rotherham, Burton, Huddersfield excepted).

I think 7th is fine. I'm not one who likes to belittle smaller less financially better off clubs but if Derby cannot achieve top 8 with the resources they have then someone is clearly doing something wrong.

I accept there are teams like Sheffield Wednesday, Leeds, Villa, Brighton, Newcastle, Forest, QPR, Wolves Norwich all big clubs with resources but being worse than 8 of these teams isn't success IMO.

Success is competing with these teams and finishing above some of them. If that means 3rd place or 7th then I don't think the manager is doing a bad job.

A lower league position suggests to me he's failing but that's purely based on my perhaps skewed expectations due to me seeing Derby as a huge club with lots of money in comparison to my usual lower league stuff I'm used to.

I must admit to not really knowing the Championship and I maybe have underestimated the calibre of clubs in the league.

Top 8 though minimum with regular entertaining football is my idea of a manager doing a decent enough job. With my perceptions of Derby and what they have and also taking into account other clubs of a similar ilk in the league I still hold the belief that achieving my targets is a relatively simple task for any half decent manager.

[Angry Ram]

I would say 100% we have been a difficult club to manage. Morris was all over the place.. This direction, that direction, no real plan or if we did we binned it every other month. We have been a shambles for a couple of years. Of course that makes us difficult to manage.

[Tony Le Mesmer]

1 minute ago, Angry Ram said:

I would say 100% we have been a difficult club to manage. Morris was all over the place.. This direction, that direction, no real plan or if we did we binned it every other month. We have been a shambles for a couple of years. Of course that makes us difficult to manage.

I see what you're saying Angry but I've always been sceptical of blaming behind the scenes chaos for managerial failure.

A manager signs / selects a group of players, trains them, gives them details of how to play against the opposition and sends them out to manage them in order to win games of football.

I don't see how the chairman / board can affect this. Of course it's unsettling but everyone should just get on with their job best they can as usual and nothing really should become more difficult.

I do realise this is an incredibly simplistic viewpoint and I'm sure there are many factors why such an unsettling scenario would hinder results but it's just the way my brain works I'm afraid. If it were me. I'm responsible for the players I pick and partly what they do on the pitch - my chairman / club owner isn't.

[Angry Ram]

6 minutes ago, Tony Le Mesmer said:

I see what you're saying Angry but I've always been sceptical of blaming behind the scenes chaos for managerial failure.

A manager signs / selects a group of players, trains them, gives them details of how to play against the opposition and sends them out to manage them in order to win games of football.

I don't see how the chairman / board can affect this. Of course it's unsettling but everyone should just get on with their job best they can as usual and nothing really should become more difficult.

I do realise this is an incredibly simplistic viewpoint and I'm sure there are many factors why such an unsettling scenario would hinder results but it's just the way my brain works I'm afraid. If it were me. I'm responsible for the players I pick and partly what they do on the pitch - my chairman / club owner isn't.

But Clement got sacked for not following The Morris vision.. The so called 'Derby way'. I would say that made it pretty difficult for Clement to manage.. or would you say not? Morris interfered with what he as a coach/manager wanted to do.

[toddy]

3 minutes ago, Angry Ram said:

But Clement got sacked for not following The Morris vision.. The so called 'Derby way'. I would say that made it pretty difficult for Clement to manage.. or would you say not? Morris interfered with what he as a coach/manager wanted to do.

Wasn't the 'Derby way' coined after Clement was sacked?

[Tony Le Mesmer]

16 minutes ago, Angry Ram said:

But Clement got sacked for not following The Morris vision.. The so called 'Derby way'. I would say that made it pretty difficult for Clement to manage.. or would you say not? Morris interfered with what he as a coach/manager wanted to do.

Did Clement know this is what Mel wanted before he took the job on? I have no idea but maybe you or others can tell me. If so then personally I can't have any sympathy for Clement. A bit like Garry Monk at Leeds. Yes he's doing an amazing job and proving that sometimes background chaos can be overcome if you're canny. I'd have no sympathy for him though if it went wrong because the world and his wife know that Leeds is a basket case club and Monk knew what he was taking on.

If Morris was interfering during Clements reign completely out of the blue then yes, I can imagine that managing would be difficult.

It's a very good point that I hadn't thought of. If I was in that position I'd have to ask Mel to leave me be and if not I'd have to leave my position.

I guess most would just carry on until they were sacked but either way I can see the uncertainty and meddling would prove a hindrance to getting the most out of the job and the players.

That said though, if you want to keep your job then play good football and finish top 8 then Mel might just leave you alone. I accept that may not be enough for Mel but it's success for me as a ST holder and I'd class that as success for a Derby manager.

Good points Angry. Makes me think of others valid points when they are explained to me.

[Van der MoodHoover]

22 minutes ago, Tony Le Mesmer said:

Did Clement know this is what Mel wanted before he took the job on? I have no idea but maybe you or others can tell me. If so then personally I can't have any sympathy for Clement. A bit like Garry Monk at Leeds. Yes he's doing an amazing job and proving that sometimes background chaos can be overcome if you're canny. I'd have no sympathy for him though if it went wrong because the world and his wife know that Leeds is a basket case club and Monk knew what he was taking on.

If Morris was interfering during Clements reign completely out of the blue then yes, I can imagine that managing would be difficult.

It's a very good point that I hadn't thought of. If I was in that position I'd have to ask Mel to leave me be and if not I'd have to leave my position.

I guess most would just carry on until they were sacked but either way I can see the uncertainty and meddling would prove a hindrance to getting the most out of the job and the players.

That said though, if you want to keep your job then play good football and finish top 8 then Mel might just leave you alone. I accept that may not be enough for Mel but it's success for me as a ST holder and I'd class that as success for a Derby manager.

Good points Angry. Makes me think of others valid points when they are explained to me.

We can't know for sure of course. There is uncertainty over how much say Paul clement had in the summer 2015 transfer dealings. 

And isn't it generally accepted that Bradley Johnson signing was a Mel thing?

But I haven't heard anything to suggest Mel was in clements ear on day to day matters like tactics and selection. On here or otherwise. 

Whether that makes the club or the chairman difficult to manage I'm not sure. .....

[jono]

3 hours ago, KBB said:

I know a couple of people in and around football, from academy to first team coaches and they always mention the fans.

it seems to be all the "big clubs" ie. Derby, villa, forest that have fallen on hard times that get mentioned. Expectation, coupled with disappointment means sometimes atmospheres at the home ground isn't the best when it comes to players playing without fear of making mistakes.

the cliche is stop them playing football, make to games scrappy, keep it tight and eventually the fans with moan, groan and get on the players backs.

That is so so true. great post 

[G STAR RAM]

43 minutes ago, toddy said:

Wasn't the 'Derby way' coined after Clement was sacked?

No. There were pictures of Morris stood in front of a sign 'The Derby Way' on the day he announced his takeover from the club.

I think it's therefore safe to assume that this was something conveyed to Clement during the interview process rather than something dreamed up as an excuse to get rid of him.

[Angry Ram]

11 minutes ago, HantsRam said:

We can't know for sure of course. There is uncertainty over how much say Paul clement had in the summer 2015 transfer dealings. 

And isn't it generally accepted that Bradley Johnson signing was a Mel thing?

But I haven't heard anything to suggest Mel was in clements ear on day to day matters like tactics and selection. On here or otherwise. 

Whether that makes the club or the chairman difficult to manage I'm not sure. .....

Agreed but Mel certainly entered the dressing room, surely nobody can say that makes the job easy for the manager?

In answer to @Tony Le Mesmer

As Hants says it is difficult to know what the understanding was... Surely and coach/manager will want some sort of creative input as the season progresses? Why have him otherwise? Well I guess Morris answered that question when he sacked him.. Read into that what you want.

 

 

[G STAR RAM]

2 hours ago, toddy said:

And 5th two weeks later, playing dross football?

As I said the nearly man.............

The season doesn't finish in February though so we will never really know. Most teams have a blip at some point in the season...

[G STAR RAM]

8 minutes ago, Angry Ram said:

Agreed but Mel certainly entered the dressing room, surely nobody can say that makes the job easy for the manager?

In answer to @Tony Le Mesmer

As Hants says it is difficult to know what the understanding was... Surely and coach/manager will want some sort of creative input as the season progresses? Why have him otherwise? Well I guess Morris answered that question when he sacked him.. Read into that what you want.

From what we were told, the dressing room entry was to tell the management and playing staff, as a collective, that performances were not acceptable.

If he had gone in and spoken to individuals or discussed tactics then I could see that as overstepping the mark. If it was just a general 'book your ideas up' to his employees I don't see how this could have affected the manager alone.

[RadioactiveWaste]

 

In answer to the question, I think what was meant was "Mel Morris, difficult to manage" which may or may not be true, but is certainly a line Pearson and Clement will stick to, especially as its seen that way outside the club (seems to be).

 

[Ilsonram12]

Not too arsed what Colin ****** says, but the expectations for a club who in the last decade have had one awful season in the premier is huge, with the fans regularly packing pride park out and money splashing out etc are huge

cant be easy for any boss with that

[Rev]

4 hours ago, toddy said:

Thought we already had?

Lots of great number 2's out there that couldn't make a number 1, he isn't unique!

That's easy enough to manage.

It's far harder to turn a successful no one into a number two, first you have to gauge whether a pinch and sit down is in order, or can you let the blockage pass through a fart, for instance.

Not so bad in your own home, or if your hosts have brown towels, but in most social situations it's a nightmare, with best odds of 50/50 of a happy ending.