'Fringe' Players...'Time to sell'

[Alph]

3 hours ago, eddie said:

A club is allowed more than two quality centre-backs - or indeed more than one quality player for any given position. In fact, it is desirable to the point of being essential - the problem is then the manager's as to how you accommodate them. Shackell is no longer an automatic start - it is now down to him how he addresses that.

Think this settles the Shack debate.

If he's happy to fight for his place and Mel can afford to keep him then what we worried about?

We have Shackell as back up. That's better than Russell Anderson

[PistoldPete2]

No need to sell anyone... We need to buy and strengthen the squad. 

[cannable]

1 hour ago, Alpha said:

It weird isn't it?

I'm not especially desperate for Martin to come back. I want a striker similar to Martin so it brings our midfield forward but I'm not arsed who it is. But I end up looking like I'm desperate for him just because I defend a lot of the criticism aimed at him. I mean very rarely did he do anything complex or amazing enough that you'd give him MotM or a 9 out of 10. But he had a major impact and regularly chipped in with goals. He'd go on droughts but a goal here and a goal there would mount up. 

It was the same with Pearson wasn't it?

Even though you'd try to be fair on him you'd get some OTT praise related to Leicester. So you'd try to point at that's not relevant or entirely true

Then the players would be getting slaughtered and you'd say "Well Bryson doesn't produce his best in DM or Butters on the left" etc. 

And because the debate would continue to come up then you'd end up looking like you had a problem. 

Plenty of things used to frustrate me with Martin

Trying the flicks and 1 touch passes when momentum is with the opponent. We'd lose the ball and we just needed him to hold on and just break the momentum. Slow the tempo so we could get back in the game. There's a time and a place Chris!!

Going down when he's in a good situation. 

Staying down in his game of Chris v Ref while play is clearly going to carry on.

It would be nicer if he was a touch quicker. When stood up by a defender, even 1v1, he didn't really have anything to beat them with. He beat defenders within 2 touches, a pass or movement but struggled when he was stood up. 

So not perfect. But who is? And the positives outweighed the negatives. 

I just can't fathom how people don't rate or want him, despite being the best striker Derby striker in a genaration (and I know it's a generation as it's my generation) because of his on the on the pitch demeanour.

It's a load of sanctimonious bullshit. I'm with you in wanting a striker of his style more than him himself… but he'll always have a place in my heart as the best striker Derby have had throughout my best years. 

[RoyMac5]

14 minutes ago, cannable said:

It's a load of sanctimonious bullshit. I'm with you in wanting a striker of his style more than him himself…

Nope, can't see where you're coming from - we've waited a generation and you think another is just gonna pop along?!

Come back Chrissie we need you.

[cannable]

2 hours ago, RoyMac5 said:

Nope, can't see where you're coming from - we've waited a generation and you think another is just gonna pop along?!

Come back Chrissie we need you.

As with every member of the squad, if better is available then get better

[Ninos]

11 hours ago, Alpha said:

It weird isn't it?

I'm not especially desperate for Martin to come back. I want a striker similar to Martin so it brings our midfield forward but I'm not arsed who it is. But I end up looking like I'm desperate for him just because I defend a lot of the criticism aimed at him. I mean very rarely did he do anything complex or amazing enough that you'd give him MotM or a 9 out of 10. But he had a major impact and regularly chipped in with goals. He'd go on droughts but a goal here and a goal there would mount up. 

It was the same with Pearson wasn't it?

Even though you'd try to be fair on him you'd get some OTT praise related to Leicester. So you'd try to point at that's not relevant or entirely true

Then the players would be getting slaughtered and you'd say "Well Bryson doesn't produce his best in DM or Butters on the left" etc. 

And because the debate would continue to come up then you'd end up looking like you had a problem. 

Plenty of things used to frustrate me with Martin

Trying the flicks and 1 touch passes when momentum is with the opponent. We'd lose the ball and we just needed him to hold on and just break the momentum. Slow the tempo so we could get back in the game. There's a time and a place Chris!!

Going down when he's in a good situation. 

Staying down in his game of Chris v Ref while play is clearly going to carry on.

It would be nicer if he was a touch quicker. When stood up by a defender, even 1v1, he didn't really have anything to beat them with. He beat defenders within 2 touches, a pass or movement but struggled when he was stood up. 

So not perfect. But who is? And the positives outweighed the negatives. 

That's a good honest defence of him. 

The faults listed make him an acceptable choice for a Nigel clough hang around in the division team, but not for a premier league aspiring side I'm afraid: it depends what you see as the future of DCFC.

[RoyMac5]

7 hours ago, cannable said:

As with every member of the squad, if better is available then get better

But we didn't get better we got Vydra!

Plus it doesn't mean you have to get rid of the 'nearly better'. All these names being bandied about - realistically how much would they cost if 'not better' Martin is going for £9m?!

[Silver]

12 hours ago, PistoldPete2 said:

No need to sell anyone... We need to buy and strengthen the squad. 

We may need to sell to buy though - Financial Fair Play.  We can't simply keep adding to the squad, the books need balancing and we will only do that by moving players on who are on a high wage, who will command a good fee or both.  

[RoyMac5]

38 minutes ago, Silver said:

...the books need balancing and we will only do that by moving players on who are on a high wage, who will command a good fee or both.  

So...sell our better players?

[Sparkle]

No sale from me unless something compatible and hopfully better comes in but the ball is in fulham's court

[Silver]

2 hours ago, RoyMac5 said:

So...sell our better players?

That's not what I said, we do not know if FFP will block us from buying without selling.  Wages are much higher than in previous years and fees in and out can be staged over multiple years so we could be in a position where we need to fund any incoming transfers.  This topic is about fringe players, some have expressed a view that we should not be selling these as we may need them.  I am pointing out that the choice might not be so simple if we want to bring in new players  

 

[rynny]

6 minutes ago, Silver said:

That's not what I said, we do not know if FFP will block us from buying without selling.  Wages are much higher than in previous years and fees in and out can be staged over multiple years so we could be in a position where we need to fund any incoming transfers.  This topic is about fringe players, some have expressed a view that we should not be selling these as we may need them.  I am pointing out that the choice might not be so simple if we want to bring in new players  

 

I trust the board and owner to make sure we do not fall foul of any FFP issues, and will not push us to the limit in the Summer transfer window where we would not be able to strengthen in January if necessary without any players leaving first. This summer we spent approx £12m we received £10.5m for Hendrick approx £3.5m for Martin's loan, Shotton, Albentosa Buxton, Warnock, and Sammon, have all been removed from the wage budget and with us receiving fees for Shotton, Albentosa and Buxton of around £2m (in total). Which would give us a profit from this window of around £4m-ish, so any budget we had in mind for January will have potentially been increased.

The point @RoyMac5 was making (I think) the only players that will interest other teams are the our better players and the ones we should not be looking to sell.

[Silver]

We do not know how much of the incoming or outgoing transfer fees are staged over a number of years.  On reported headline prices I think we just about broke even on transfer fees in the summer but we do know from noises coming from the club that the wage bill is significantly higher than in previous years. 

[BobbyD]

22 hours ago, lrm14 said:

This is really upsetting to read.

Like he's almost certainly gone but this is borderline delusional.

Is that the best you can do ?

Jesus, man, get a grip of yourself !

How about some reasoned debate, some counter-thoughts, some alternative, reasoned alternatives ....

Christ, its like you can lead a horse to water, but.......

[VulcanRam]

I genuinely don't think we have fringe players.

Every single one of our first team squad can make a positive impact.

[RoyMac5]

52 minutes ago, VulcanRam said:

I genuinely don't think we have fringe players.

Every single one of our first team squad can make a positive impact.

Woah! I'll have some of what you're having!

[RodleyRam]

On Wednesday, December 21, 2016 at 18:10, Alpha said:

His body language I doubt matters to anyone but some fans. If you've ever played with a greedy moaner then you'll know what it's like. 

You don't need speed to play as a lone striker or as a pair or as a three. There's no rule to winning. He scored 60 goals in 3 seasons and was a massive part of the other goals we scored. His dragging of defenders to allow others to bomb past, his 1 and 2 touch exchanges, his defending of set pieces, his winning of free kicks and general hold up play. All done without pace. Pace is like aerial ability, strength... it is not essential to any position. You need it in your team but where you need it depends on how your system and style works. 

Tom Ince has had no success in the PL. Lee Grant, Jeff Hendrick and Bradley Johnson are 3 players that have been written off and put up for sale and benched by Derby fans. All 3 have looked fine in the PL. Jesse Lingard plays for Man United. It's all about how a player works for a team. There's no benchmark for a player. Have you seen some of the ***** that's PL class? 

Again, his attitude only embarrassed some fans. 

He is exactly a team player. All the dropping deep, drawing tackles, defending corners, neat exchanges instead of shooting on sight and all the assists and chances created by him show he's a team player 

Now can you write one about how Shackell is currently a useful squad player but as it stands he's being kept out of the side by two players better suited to our side and in better form. You might want to add in that if he's willing to be patient and fight for his place and support his team mates then he's welcome to stay, if he's not up for that he can move on and good luck to him etc.

I only suggest it because you seem to be a reasonably consistent voice of reason and certain people might actually read it and be able to digest it without taking things completely out of context and creating attention seeking arguments that take up valuable space on the Internet. 

[RodleyRam]

2 hours ago, VulcanRam said:

I genuinely don't think we have fringe players.

Every single one of our first team squad can make a positive impact.

No scape goats? None at all? Not even our leading scorer or most creative attacking talent? Madness I tell you!

[Van der MoodHoover]

A number of our current squad are not macs players and our frequent recent management changes suggest we have players recruited for various different systems. 

I trust that mac has his plans a and b and will have clearly identified who will fit. Those surplus to requirements will be moved on either by transfer,  loan or expiry of contract. 

We are a striker short. We haven't replaced Wilson. This should be a priority incoming. The type of striker is up for debate. I like the idea of a Martin upgrade but lack the knowledge of who that might be.

[EnigmaRam]

Wilson was here to play in a two, with Blackman, bent and Vydra. Since then we now play with one forward out of bent, Vydra and Blackman. 

Not sure we need a new striker unless Mac doesn't think these are good enough. Bent is out of contract in the summer, Vydra  probably doesn't fit the role (currently) and Blackman hasn't had the chance as yet. Personally I think Blackman is the best of the 3 for the central role but only time will tell.