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'Fringe' Players...'Time to sell'


Daz_The_Ram

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7 minutes ago, Mostyn6 said:

you're a football man, you know when someone is committed and when someone is going through the motions. If Shackell wasn't so naturally adept and knowing where to stand when the opposition shoots, fans would have sussed him a long time ago.

I know when a player is or isn't committed. Shaun Barker was committed. Martin Albrechtsen wasn't. Jake Buxton was. Jason Shackell isn't.

You only have to look at Hull's first goal last season to see that. Whilst I am not Buxton's biggest fan, we wouldn't have conceded if he was standing where Shackell was, he would have won the ball or at least cleaned the player up as a minimum.

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11 minutes ago, Mostyn6 said:

you're a football man, you know when someone is committed and when someone is going through the motions. If Shackell wasn't so naturally adept and knowing where to stand when the opposition shoots, fans would have sussed him a long time ago.

I know when a player is or isn't committed. Shaun Barker was committed. Martin Albrechtsen wasn't. Jake Buxton was. Jason Shackell isn't.

That is open to debate. I understand what you’re saying, and yes I’ve known plenty a sulker in my years in football, but Shackell is not one of them.

I’d argue, that at the side of Buxton, Shackell just looks decidedly untroubled, purely BECAUSE of his positional sense. What is wrong with that? We seem to like people who ‘look committed’ at this club, and overlook genuine ability far too much. Is it clearly wrong to be ‘naturally adept’ at defending? I think not.

Just because Buxton was on the stretch, or crunching people in desperation, or grinding and gnashing his teeth and beating his chest all of the time, doesn’t mean he was a top class centre half.

Carson, in goal, for example, looks completely untroubled, that is because he is a genuinely top class ‘keeper, who knows his art inside out. No need for screaming and looking frustrated and angry. Just do it well.

Barker, now that guy is a different kettle of fish altogether. If I could have the old Barker back, yes, THEN maybe I ‘d wonder about Shackell. Yet ... wait, hang on ... who did Barker play alongside?

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I'm not a season ticket holder, so maybe not seen everything he's done. But those of you who are fans of Weimann, could you tell me what it is you think is so great?

no disrespect and I'm not being funny, but I see a lot of posts on here saying he's good but not had the chances/luck/game time/rub of the green etc 

but I just don't see it. 

Hes not started a lot, sure. But other than an occasional goal (from a £2m, as then premiership player) I just don't think he's that good.

Im not saying he's Claude Davis Bad, but if we were to trim a few names of the squad list, he's the one that'd go first for me.

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People saying they would sell Blackman and weimann over Russell? A few months ago the same people wanted Pearce to be sold, he finally got his chance and look.... So why don't Blackman and weimann get a proper chance? Over Russell who's had so many chances 

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1 minute ago, Daz_The_Ram said:

I wasn't there, what was it he did that was so unforgivable? 

After giving away a three goal lead in the space of five minutes (two of the goals were probably at least partly down to him personally) he flounced off the pitch in a huff whilst every other player fronted up to the fans, and publically shouted at his manager to duck off in the process.

To be honest it's probably pretty petty of me to hold a grudge but it's not what I want to see from our senior players and showed a lack of respect and professionalism which for me at least are important traits when playing for Derby County.

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Players not in our starting XI that I could see other clubs wanting:

Shackell, Camara, Weinmann. Brighton are interested in JR, but he's not fringe at the moment.

Blackman - Injured, allegedly on high wages.

Anya - Injured, no been here long.

Vydra - I know he's record signing, and I do think he's a quality player but if a team who want to use him right come in for him with appropriate money...

Midfield, I know some would sell Bryson, but since GT's out and Jeff gone we're not overstocked particularly.

Chris Wheal - keep at all costs - key part of the squad.

My main worry at present is a low end PL team will want to put their transfer kitty on Tom Ince moving his ridiculous form to them (and the ever present when will serious bids come in for Hughes...)

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5 minutes ago, nottingram said:

After giving away a three goal lead in the space of five minutes (two of the goals were probably at least partly down to him personally) he flounced off the pitch in a huff whilst every other player fronted up to the fans, and publically shouted at his manager to duck off in the process.

To be honest it's probably pretty petty of me to hold a grudge but it's not what I want to see from our senior players and showed a lack of respect and professionalism which for me at least are important traits when playing for Derby County.

He was probably just very bloody angry with his own performance mate to be honest, I've seen it, and indeed, I've done it myself. Those sorts of things bubble over all the time at football clubs, day in and day out. i remember hearing about it now.

I remember thinking he must just have been wound up with Darren Wassall's tactical ineptitude as well. ;-)

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7 minutes ago, TopRam said:

People saying they would sell Blackman and weimann over Russell? A few months ago the same people wanted Pearce to be sold, he finally got his chance and look.... So why don't Blackman and weimann get a proper chance? Over Russell who's had so many chances 

Firstly Russell along with Bryson are good at giving the side much needed tempo which is essential in our style of play.

secondly, all of the recent Managers who watch the players on the training pitch as well as the games pick him so I trust their judgement over fans.

Ince for example shouldn't have been anywhere near the team before SM came back but he is an integral part of how we play now. Same applies  for Johnson.

I rated Blackman when I saw him play for Reading and is definitely a keeper for me, his chance will come.

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30 minutes ago, Daz_The_Ram said:

That is open to debate. I understand what you’re saying, and yes I’ve known plenty a sulker in my years in football, but Shackell is not one of them.

I’d argue, that at the side of Buxton, Shackell just looks decidedly untroubled, purely BECAUSE of his positional sense. What is wrong with that? We seem to like people who ‘look committed’ at this club, and overlook genuine ability far too much. Is it clearly wrong to be ‘naturally adept’ at defending? I think not.

Just because Buxton was on the stretch, or crunching people in desperation, or grinding and gnashing his teeth and beating his chest all of the time, doesn’t mean he was a top class centre half.

Carson, in goal, for example, looks completely untroubled, that is because he is a genuinely top class ‘keeper, who knows his art inside out. No need for screaming and looking frustrated and angry. Just do it well.

Barker, now that guy is a different kettle of fish altogether. If I could have the old Barker back, yes, THEN maybe I ‘d wonder about Shackell. Yet ... wait, hang on ... who did Barker play alongside?

I never said he was a sulker. They are your words. I said he in not committed. 

Positional sense is one thing, and as I say, that has kept him in the game. Desire and effort are different and explain why he rarely lasted more than a couple of seasons at a club.

I never said he was adept at defending either, more the aspect of blocking shots. As you know, blocking shots is probably a small percentage of the 90minute game. The rest is where he isn't convincing for me.

Please don't confuse being aggressive for being committed.

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1 minute ago, Mostyn6 said:

Desire and effort are different and explain why he rarely lasted more than a couple of seasons at a club.

One way of looking at it but Barnsley or Burnley weren't exactly kean to sell to us, wasn't a fan approved decision to get rid and bring in Keogh if you remember.

Not a player that's seen his career go backwards that many times, loan move to Doncaster and Burnley to Derby.

 

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12 minutes ago, Daz_The_Ram said:

He was probably just very bloody angry with his own performance mate to be honest, I've seen it, and indeed, I've done it myself. Those sorts of things bubble over all the time at football clubs, day in and day out. i remember hearing about it now.

I remember thinking he must just have been wound up with Darren Wassall's tactical ineptitude as well. ;-)

Yeah you're probably right but unfortunately I am definitely one to hold a grudge.

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21 minutes ago, Mostyn6 said:

I never said he was a sulker. They are your words. I said he in not committed. 

Positional sense is one thing, and as I say, that has kept him in the game. Desire and effort are different and explain why he rarely lasted more than a couple of seasons at a club.

I never said he was adept at defending either, more the aspect of blocking shots. As you know, blocking shots is probably a small percentage of the 90minute game. The rest is where he isn't convincing for me.

Please don't confuse being aggressive for being committed.

Again, explain to me why he is not committed. Desire and effort are very little without positional sense. Keogh is full of desire and effort, positionally, he worries me a lot of the time. Same with Buxton during his time here, I will reiterate, I don't give a toss for gnashing of teeth and shedding blood if you are costing me silly goals.

Please don't confuse being aggressive for being committed? I don't.

Well, then please don't confuse just looking untroubled, being bloody good at your job, for not being so.

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15 minutes ago, David said:

One way of looking at it but Barnsley or Burnley weren't exactly kean to sell to us, wasn't a fan approved decision to get rid and bring in Keogh if you remember

 

Spot on. Ask any fan of any of those two clubs what they thing about him. OK, he moved, and upset a few ... but so what? That is football. I'm fairly sure they'd take him back in a heartbeat.

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