England - Is this why we are crap?

[Bridgford Ram]

It is often said that the England national team suffers because of all the foreign players in our Premier League.  While that may have an impact all of the other top leagues also have a high percentage of foreign players and we only need 20 top players - surely playing with all of these high quality imports will improve them?  I wonder if the real issue is actually the opposite - that we have no players experiencing other leagues and football cultures - Joe Hart excepted.  If you look at the other top ranked European nations (and I wanted to do more but am about to leave for the match) they all have players spread around the top leagues of Europe.

I think our players would benefit from spells in Spain, Germany, Italy or even France and would become better internationals.

For the teams I have done so far I have looked at the squad and recent call ups on wikipedia and noted the number of players playing abroad out of those call ups.  For England it is 1 player out of 40.  I have then noted the players in the top leagues (England, Spain, Germany, Italy & France).  If people are interested I shall look at more later on - Holland, Italy and perhaps some others.

England 1/40 (23 last squad / 17 recent call ups) - Italy 1 (Hart)

Germany 10/38 (20 last squad / 18 recent call ups) - Spain 2 (ter Stegen, Kroos), England 5 (Mustafi, Gündoğan, Can, Ozil, Sane), France 1 (Trapp), Italy 2 (Rudiger, Khedira)

Belgium 33/41 (24 last squad /17 recent call ups) - England 19* (Courtois, Mignolet, Sels, Vertonghen, De Bruyne, Defour, Lukaku, Hazard, Mirallas, Origi, Benteke, Batshuayi, Kabasele, Kompany, Alderweireld, Pocognoli, Denayer, Dembele, Fellaini, Chadli), France 2 (Meunier, Gillet) Italy 4 (Mertens, Lukaku, Vermaelen, Nainggolan) Spain 1 (Carrasco) Germany 1 (Hazard)

Lesser Leagues - Turkey 1, MLS 1, Russia 2, Scotland 1

France 27/41 (21 last squad / 20 recent call ups) - England 13 (Lloris, Koschielny, Pogba, Payet, Kante, Sissoko, Giroud, Mandanda, Sakho, Sagna, Cabaye, Schneiderlin, Martial) Italy 2 (Evra, Kondogbia) Spain 9 (Varane, Rami, Digne, Mangala, Gameiro, Umititi, Laporte, Mathieu, Griezmann) Germany 2 (Dembele, Coman)

Lesser Leagues - Mexico 1

Portugal 21/34**   (23 last squad / 11 recent call ups) - France 4 (Lopes, Silva, Eder, Moutinho)  Italy 2 (Alves, Joao Mario)  England 3 (Fonte, Eduardo, Cedric) Germany 3 (Guerreiro, Renato Sanches, Vieirinha)  Spain 5 (Cancelo, Andre Gomes, Ronaldo, Nani, Pepe)

Lesser Leagues - Russia 2, Ukraine 1, Turkey 1

Spain 19/52 (25 last squad / 27 recent call ups) - England 13 (De Gea, Azpilicueta, Monreal, Juan Mata, Herrera, Silva, Nolito, Adrian, Lopez, Bellerin, Fabregas, Costa, Pedro)  Italy 2 (Reina, Callejon)  Germany 3 (Bartra, Thiago, Martinez)

Lesser Leagues - Portugal 1

* Includes 2 at Championship clubs

** One unattached.

I think it is key that even national teams with very strong leagues (such as Spain and Germany) still have players dotted around other major leagues getting experience.  I think the stats above show a stronger discrepancy for the England squad than the often quoted 'to many foreigners in our league' argument meaning that it should be given some consideration as the reason we under perform as a nation.

[AndyinLiverpool]

Yes. Been saying for years that English players should go abroad to help become better players instead of collecting their stupid salaries and photosynthesising in the reserves. 

[mozza]

good point , sod em all off to siberia ..

[LeedsCityRam]

Its definitely a factor although it could be argued that the Premier League now has so many foreign influences, that young English players are exposed to more playing styles than if they had started playing in the 1980's for example.

For me though, the main weakness of English players is the inability to think for themselves - certainly compared to their continental peers. How many English players are able to adapt to changes in opposition tactics/personnel or problems that crop up within the game without direction from the coaching staff? Iceland in the Euros was a notable example but there are countless others of England looking utterly bemused & totally ineffective when faced with an unfamiliar foe/problem.

If you coach creativity out of players at youth level & insist on them being spoon fed by their coaches, it can be no surprise that in adverse situations, the same players are incapable of working their way out.

[jagerbob]

Bit of both for me. but having too many foreigners in england is the biggest reason. It basically means wales scotland ireland and nothern ireland have largely championship players. In England case there is very few to choose from meaning perenial clowns like Lingaard get picked.

Ask any german,and they all tell me too many foreigners is at the detriment to your own national team.  The Premiership is a monster thats been created and the FA dont seem to know or even care about what to do about it, other than offer to pay the england manager the most in world football. I just couldnt see germany or france going down this route, they are too proud of their nationality to allow it to happen. They dont even like buying cars made abroad let alone football players!

On a similar note, the bomardier contract being awarded to Siemans based in another country would never happen in germany or france for the same reasons,

[Van der MoodHoover]

The England team is effectively a scratch team . the 2 or 3 international breaks are nowhere near enough for a national coach to overlay his tactics and thinking to the club methods already coached into players . 

Hence what we have is a bit like the British lions in rugby. individually talented players thrown together and taught a few set plays but expected to simply fuse their various club experiences together to achieve coherence . what tends to happen is that you get odd moments or games of brilliance but rarely a tournament worth of success . 

[Anag Ram]

I agree with the sentiments of this article entirely but I would ask the question of you all. Have you, when work has become tough or unsatisfactory considered moving abroad?

It's a tough decision to move away from your friends and family, especially if you're young and not particularly gifted in languages.

Part of the reason so many foreign players do well here is that English is taught from an early age as a compulsory study.

Sweeping generalisation I know, but as a race, we are more reluctant to try languages or experience other cultures.

 

[Bris Vegas]

Aside from the number of foreign players in the PL, the diversity in terms of playing style in English football doesn't help the national team at all and the lower you go down the worst it becomes.

Barcelona aren't the only team who play a possession-based style in Spain. In fact, you'd be hard pressed to find a Spanish club who doesn't play this sort of football - hence from youth level upwards they all play the same way, regardless of the team.

In Germany, the majority if not all play a quick counterattacking style, and they have done for years. It doesn't matter if you leave Dortmund to play for Berlin, Mainz, Augsburg or any other side... There is a continuity in playing style.

In England it's so different. Arsenal vary from West Ham, who vary from West Brom who vary from Newcastle who vary from Ipswich and so on. There are so many different styles in England it makes player progression almost impossible.

If you're a young English kid on Arsenal's books - who do you go to in order to help you develop your game? Hardly anyone plays like Arsenal. If you're on Liverpool's books, how does a loan move to say QPR help you when both teams play such contrasting styles of play.

English football will never have just one style due to the diversity throughout the game therefore the national team will never have a complete set of 20 squad players all singing from the same hymn sheet.

One way which will help the national team is having B teams. Spain and Germany have them. Instead of Arsenal sending their youngsters off to learn diddly squat playing longball football at Ipswich , they could play the Arsenal way and train with Arsenal coaches in an Arsenal B team against Championship opponents. However, English football fans would never accept that, whereas in Spain and Germany it's different.

You can't have it both ways. You can't have the best tier or divisions in world football and the best national team. There is too much conflict.

[ariotofmyown]

My kids played football last season but we have given something else a go this year. Speaking to the other dads who go with their 6/7 year old, they usually play matches against other clubs now instead of training. On big pitches with big goals. Half the kids last year couldn't pass and stop a ball.

I play footy on a tuesday night with other 30-50 years olds. I'm not much good but try to pass the ball around and keep posession. I'm probably in the minority compared to the players who keep thumping it long hit and hope style, send it high crosses for someone to head into a goal about 4 foot high, or just keep dribbling with a 1 in 10 success rate.

English football. Techinally poor with little intelligence. Get into them, fk them up.

[Bridgford Ram]

2 hours ago, Anag Ram said:

I agree with the sentiments of this article entirely but I would ask the question of you all. Have you, when work has become tough or unsatisfactory considered moving abroad?

It's a tough decision to move away from your friends and family, especially if you're young and not particularly gifted in languages.

Part of the reason so many foreign players do well here is that English is taught from an early age as a compulsory study.

Sweeping generalisation I know, but as a race, we are more reluctant to try languages or experience other cultures.

 

I don't think I've ever had one of my posts called an 'article' before.  I am taking that :-)

You are absolutely right about the language issue and the fact that a move abroad is a tough difficult decision.  That said, that means our players are taking the comfortable, easy option by staying in this county on decent wages.  Is this comfort zone mentality the way our players are going to make that final step from very good to world class?

The England WC squad in 2006 (just as an example) was littered with players who were excelling in what was probably the top league in the world back then.  The likes of Ashley Cole, Gerrard, Terry, Ferdinand, Lampard, Joe Cole and Rooney were amongst the top players in a top league.  Yet we didn't achieve very much at all.

When we compare our English players against overseas players in our league they may look as good or almost as good but we don't take into account that the likes of Aguero are thousands of miles away from family and their children, living in a different culture with a different climate.

[Tony Le Mesmer]

Mental fortitude and an innate desire to push harder to make things happen when the chips at down. Both aren't there in any English players anymore save for Rooney debatably.

Essentially leaders. England doesn't produce them anymore.

That's the problem IMO. England have the players to go far, they just don't have the strength or togetherness to overcome difficulties.

You can't teach or train these qualities, they're either in there or not.

Someone mentioned England players not going abroad to play for overseas clubs anymore as being an issue and I do agree. Such a move takes you out of your comfort zone (relatively speaking - we are still talking about everything delivered on a plate footballers here) and going to a new country, culture, language as well as adapting to their style of play can only improve somebody as a person and a player.

It's too easy to go from Prem club to Prem club and not really learning anything.

Also when the England team go to tournaments why do they have to stay in the most luxurious places?

Young English players can get thousands of pounds a week, the best cars, houses, bling all for having achieved nothing and rarely starting for their first team. Do they clean boots, clean the stadium and have discipline and awareness of the club and the community it represents instilled into them from an early age making them more rounded and maintaining that sense of motivation?

No. They've already got fortunes for doing very little so why try and improve?

When I wasa YTS at Hull City in the early 90's I would have to do so many jobs around the club. I remember sweeping the terraces at the old Boothferry Park gazing out on to the pitch dreaming of scoring goals for the first team. I worked my arse off around the club doing various jobs and just loved being around a football club.

I wanted to be involved and chat to everyone and even though I was on about 60 quid a week or whatever it was, in those days becoming a footballer was all about the glory. The experience of being able to score goals to make people happy.

As a kid I was out every day whenever I could playing football and going to football because I just loved it to bits. I dare say many of you were also.

 

 

A winning sportsman nearly dies for the love of the sport and the glory of achieving. They give everything and appreciate everything because they've had to bloody well work for it both mentally and physically. Andy Murray. Tony McCoy.

Probably why England have always been failures and will continue to be.

If it's not in the heart then you've lost before you start.

[Van der MoodHoover]

7 hours ago, Anag Ram said:

I agree with the sentiments of this article entirely but I would ask the question of you all. Have you, when work has become tough or unsatisfactory considered moving abroad?

It's a tough decision to move away from your friends and family, especially if you're young and not particularly gifted in languages.

Part of the reason so many foreign players do well here is that English is taught from an early age as a compulsory study.

Sweeping generalisation I know, but as a race, we are more reluctant to try languages or experience other cultures.

 

English is pretty much the universal language of business these days - which includes great chunks of the media - so young people around the world have far greater exposure to English than we do to other languages.

We have foreign languages (French/german) taught as compulsory study in our local schools. Still didn't catch on with our son, and I think partly this is because once he was out of school his exposure to French was pretty much nil.

Personally I have always got by in foreign countries by speaking English loudly and slowly with a fake pigeon-English accent and its a disgrace that I have been allowed to get away with it..........

We as a race are very immobile. I couldn't get my wife to move north of Winchester for work.

[Sexydadbod]

The more simple answer is we are simply not very good anymore

The more complicated answer involves a whole range of different areas including the issue of picking players based on their physicality rather than technique, although that's slowly starting to change as we are making players like Lallana the focal point of the team, as we should be.

The old cliche that there are too many foreigners in the premier league is a load of nonsense I'm afraid, if anything the top foreign players help the English players to improve. Another problem is the ridiculous fees that some English players are going for. For example, John stones(an above average premier league defender) cost upwards of 50 million. If you compare that to other centre defenders around his age, Samuel Umtiti went to Barcelona for only 20 million, despite being a much better defender than Stones. Another defender better than stones, Zouma, went to Chelsea for only 12 million. I don't know why this is but there is assumption in the media that these young English players going for extraordinary prices are top players when in reality they're not. The sooner we accept that the better, I've already heard some say that the Iceland game was a one off, we will be better in 2018, that's another problem. A lot of pundits think England are always unlucky and think we deserve to be in the same bracket as the Spain or Germany's of this world when in reality, our squad is only comparable to the likes of Serbia or Austria

[brady1993]

3 hours ago, McLovin said:

The more simple answer is we are simply not very good anymore

The more complicated answer involves a whole range of different areas including the issue of picking players based on their physicality rather than technique, although that's slowly starting to change as we are making players like Lallana the focal point of the team, as we should be.

The old cliche that there are too many foreigners in the premier league is a load of nonsense I'm afraid, if anything the top foreign players help the English players to improve. Another problem is the ridiculous fees that some English players are going for. For example, John stones(an above average premier league defender) cost upwards of 50 million. If you compare that to other centre defenders around his age, Samuel Umtiti went to Barcelona for only 20 million, despite being a much better defender than Stones. Another defender better than stones, Zouma, went to Chelsea for only 12 million. I don't know why this is but there is assumption in the media that these young English players going for extraordinary prices are top players when in reality they're not. The sooner we accept that the better, I've already heard some say that the Iceland game was a one off, we will be better in 2018, that's another problem. A lot of pundits think England are always unlucky and think we deserve to be in the same bracket as the Spain or Germany's of this world when in reality, our squad is only comparable to the likes of Serbia or Austria

A lot of decent points here and on this thread in general.

One point (well two sort of) I think is important to consider that people have missed is about the management of the national team. I mean this in two ways the management of the national team by the FA and the management of the national team by the managers that have been employed. 

A good manager who is the right fit can get a team performing well above the levels thought capable, take for example the manager of Iceland who found a way to get a poor (in terms of international quality) team to a euro quarter final. Contrast this with the management of Hodgson, who could barely get through qualifying stages of tournament in large part due to negative indecisive management. Frankly the England team has been mismanaged for years. However the individuals who have been in charge are only a part of the problem, the bigger problem is the people employing them. A large problem comes from a lack of foresight on the part of the FA, with a refusal to look at the bigger picture of how they can develop a team over an extended period of time. There is no continuity in management style or play style from coach to coach employed, leading to a complete lack of cohesion. The only thing they seem to care about is that the incumbent qualifies for the next tournament whilst not rocking the cart. There needs to be stability under a manager with a long-term approach, who can develop a group of players into something more than themselves, a manager who can develop something of a team identity and playstyle.

We currently have a crop of young talented players, they might never contend for the highest honours (to be frank the quality just isn't there compared to your top national teams) true but they still could be managed to play a lot better than they currently are. Let's say in the past Euros, we won the group playing good attacking football, had a good win against Iceland and then narrowly lost after a hard fought game against France. Could anyone been mad at that ? But no we limp through the groups and lose to Iceland.

[Guest]

McLovin said "The old cliche that there are too many foreigners in the premier league is a load of nonsense I'm afraid, if anything the top foreign players help the English players to improve"

is it it a load of nonsense? Look at the number of English players in the top 6 PL teams  I think that about 30% of all squad players in the PL are English

 

 

 

 

[Van der MoodHoover]

8 hours ago, Strange yearnings said:

McLovin said "The old cliche that there are too many foreigners in the premier league is a load of nonsense I'm afraid, if anything the top foreign players help the English players to improve"

is it it a load of nonsense? Look at the number of English players in the top 6 PL teams  I think that about 30% of all squad players in the PL are English

 

 

 

 

But in the 1970s as I was growing up there were virtually zero foreign players in the football league and England couldn't even qualify for tournaments. So that thesis doesn't quite add up

....

[Sith Happens]

On 14/12/2016 at 15:38, Strange yearnings said:

McLovin said "The old cliche that there are too many foreigners in the premier league is a load of nonsense I'm afraid, if anything the top foreign players help the English players to improve"

is it it a load of nonsense? Look at the number of English players in the top 6 PL teams  I think that about 30% of all squad players in the PL are English

 

 

 

 

we only need 11 good ones...ok well maybe a few more but i do sort of agree that the foreign players has nothing to do with it, foreigmn players or not, if an english player is good enough he will play at the top level regardless of how many foreign players there are.

 

[Premier ram]

England always stick with the tried and trusted player for too long , seem scared of the flack if they try something new , players like Charlie Austin , Michael Keane , Ben Gibson, Nathan Redmond why arent they given a go , and what about Mark Noble , you may argue hes not international class , but does any English player play with the level of passion and commitment as he does ? goes a long way in my book

[IlsonDerby]

No coincidence that our last really class individual tournament performance came from a player plying his trade abroad - Hargreaves was sensational in his last major. The only player to come home with any shred of credibility left. 

[G STAR RAM]

On 14/12/2016 at 11:29, McLovin said:

The more simple answer is we are simply not very good anymore

The more complicated answer involves a whole range of different areas including the issue of picking players based on their physicality rather than technique, although that's slowly starting to change as we are making players like Lallana the focal point of the team, as we should be.

The old cliche that there are too many foreigners in the premier league is a load of nonsense I'm afraid, if anything the top foreign players help the English players to improve. Another problem is the ridiculous fees that some English players are going for. For example, John stones(an above average premier league defender) cost upwards of 50 million. If you compare that to other centre defenders around his age, Samuel Umtiti went to Barcelona for only 20 million, despite being a much better defender than Stones. Another defender better than stones, Zouma, went to Chelsea for only 12 million. I don't know why this is but there is assumption in the media that these young English players going for extraordinary prices are top players when in reality they're not. The sooner we accept that the better, I've already heard some say that the Iceland game was a one off, we will be better in 2018, that's another problem. A lot of pundits think England are always unlucky and think we deserve to be in the same bracket as the Spain or Germany's of this world when in reality, our squad is only comparable to the likes of Serbia or Austria

Agree with most of what you've said.

Disagree with the point about foreign players though. Look how many of our supposed up and coming stars have been purchased by the top clubs only to warm the bench at the expense of foreign players.

As for your point about transfer fees, I think it's pretty irrelevant, everyone knows the market is inflated and bears no relevance to how good the players actually are. As for the £50m on Stones...who was it who paid that?