Southgate. Has he done enough?

[Sexydadbod]

10 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

That's why England have won nothing for 50 years?

These buzzwords such as philosophy and identity have been in the game about 2 years and follow other such tripe such as corridor of uncertainty and passage of play into the football dictionary.

The reason England have not won anything for 50 years is because our players have not been good enough technically. We went close in 1990, 1996 and 1998 though.

So you're saying that the players in Greece 2004 team had more technical ability than the likes of Scholes,Gerrard and Ferdinand in the England team? Don't make me laugh. Every recent successful international side has had a clear identity. You could even include wales in that in the euros. Can you say what our identity is? We need to form one and develop it as much as we can. Until we get one we will continue to be failures. Saying we don't have the technical players is an easy cop out. The likes of Lallana, Henderson and Sterling currently look like superstars for their club sides, the reason is because their managers for their club sides have a clear identity to get the best out of the players

[Sexydadbod]

Spain started their 3rd choice keeper, their 5th and 6th choice centre backs,their 3rd choice left back, their 5th choice midfielder and their 3rd choice forward yesterday. In contrast, we played arguably our best team with the exception of Vardy and Lingard. Friendly games are for experimenting. I have a feeling Mr Southgate deliberately played the best team he could in order to secure his place as the next England manager

[rynny]

15 minutes ago, McLovin said:

Maybe because it was a friendly and he was trying things out?Friendlies mean f all. The majority of the team yesterday for Spain played under the same manager a few years ago for the Spanish youth teams. In contrast, only Danny rose in the England squad played in the same tournament. I saw a message from a Spanish journalist that Spain have been trying out a 3 at the back against weak teams. That's how far England have fallen. Can you imagine any English coach experimenting? Friendly games are for trying new things out not to win at all costs. I knew England were going to fail in the euros after the overreaction after we beat Germany. In that game Germany tried new things out which is what we should have been doing. I'm a firm believer that players under required age should be playing for the u23s. Rashford,Stones,Dier,Kane and Sterling shouldn't be in the England squad until they have had as much experience as possible. The likes of Saul(a champions league finalist with Atletico Madrid) and hector bellerin are still regularly playing with the Spanish u 21s in order to get as much experience of international football before moving up to the seniors which is what we should be doing. Instead any hype job like rashford gets thrown straight into the England squad. Makes me boil as people expect these players to be the finished article

 

1 minute ago, McLovin said:

Spain started their 3rd choice keeper, their 5th and 6th choice centre backs,their 3rd choice left back, their 5th choice midfielder and their 3rd choice forward yesterday. In contrast, we played arguably our best team with the exception of Vardy and Lingard. Friendly games are for experimenting. I have a feeling Mr Southgate deliberately played the best team he could in order to secure his place as the next England manager

I was going to reply to the part in bold but you have answered why it has happened yourself. You have really contradicted yourself there and show that you just like having a go at the England team and set up. Which is fine, your choice, just try to remember what you have called England out on before calling them out for the opposite, especially in virtually the next post.

[Sexydadbod]

19 minutes ago, rynny said:

 

I was going to reply to the part in bold but you have answered why it has happened yourself. You have really contradicted yourself there and show that you just like having a go at the England team and set up. Which is fine, your choice, just try to remember what you have called England out on before calling them out for the opposite, especially in virtually the next post.

How on earth is that a contradicition? Read it again. I stated that those players shouldn't be in the England squad because they should be getting as much international football with the youth teams as they can to develop them in the under 21 side in order to familiarise themselves with each other. They can be then put into the main england squad once they have had enough experience rather than being thrown straight in individually, instead of in groups which is the model that the likes of Germany,Spain and Portugal have followed. I stated why it has happened but I don't agree with it. Bellerin and Saul are good enough to be regulars in the main Spanish squad but they're deliberately left in the u21 squad to develop with the pressures of international football(at a lower level).Whilst they may be good enough to be in the squad, they wouldn't be regular starters for the main spanish squad in contrast to being starters for the u21s where they're guaranteed to play every game.

[David]

11 hours ago, McLovin said:

People in England are too bogged down with formations and believe one formation is enough to win. The philosophy doesn't come from the formation, it comes from the players at hand. 

 

41 minutes ago, McLovin said:

I saw a message from a Spanish journalist that Spain have been trying out a 3 at the back against weak teams. That's how far England have fallen. Can you imagine any English coach experimenting? Friendly games are for trying new things out not to win at all costs.

 

[Sexydadbod]

2 minutes ago, David said:

 

 

And what's the point you're making with that post? Formations aren't important but they're there to make the players interchangeable and adapt to new situations. You would still like to see Southgate adapt his ideas though in order to make us less predictable.

[David]

Just now, McLovin said:

And what's the point you're making with that post? Formations aren't important but they're there to make the players interchangeable and adapt to new situations. 

My point is no matter what England did last night you would have hammered them for it and banged on how great the Spanish way is. 

Spain can experiment with formations but England that get bogged down with formations wouldn't dare experiment, England experiment with youngsters and it's we shouldn't be doing that, look at Spain who keep their players in the U21's.

Your England hatred and love affair with Spain is nauseating and leaving contradictions in your trail and I'm not England's biggest fan right now.

 

[rynny]

21 minutes ago, McLovin said:

How on earth is that a contradicition? Read it again. I stated that those players shouldn't be in the England squad because they should be getting as much international football with the youth teams as they can to develop them in the under 21 side in order to familiarise themselves with each other. They can be then put into the main england squad once they have had enough experience rather than being thrown straight in individually, instead of in groups which is the model that the likes of Germany,Spain and Portugal have followed. I stated why it has happened but I don't agree with it. Bellerin and Saul are good enough to be regulars in the main Spanish squad but they're deliberately left in the u21 squad to develop with the pressures of international football(at a lower level).Whilst they may be good enough to be in the squad, they wouldn't be regular starters for the main spanish squad in contrast to being starters for the u21s where they're guaranteed to play every game.

Ok contradiction may have been the wrong word, hypocritical? The players that you said shouldn't be in the squad are England's best players, if they weren't in the team who would or should be in the England team? Why shouldn't England play youngsters and give them the experience at the highest level available? If they are good enough then they are old enough. Why should a player who is good enough to be playing not play?

[David]

51 minutes ago, McLovin said:

Spain started their 3rd choice keeper, their 5th and 6th choice centre backs,their 3rd choice left back, their 5th choice midfielder and their 3rd choice forward yesterday. In contrast, we played arguably our best team with the exception of Vardy and Lingard. Friendly games are for experimenting. I have a feeling Mr Southgate deliberately played the best team he could in order to secure his place as the next England manager

Go on then, I'll pull you up on this and I'll leave you to bang on. Heaton, Cresswell, Clyne, Jagielka, Townsend, Rashford, Lingard, Walcott were on the pitch together, thats 8 players which you can't argue for a second are our best team.....but England don't experiment right. Was also this non experiment that also saw us concede 2 goals that Southgate was so cautious about not doing to secure the job.

Oh but that's not experimenting I guess, playing 3 at the back would be experimenting but don't get bogged down with formations right.

See my post above about nauseating.

[G STAR RAM]

50 minutes ago, McLovin said:

So you're saying that the players in Greece 2004 team had more technical ability than the likes of Scholes,Gerrard and Ferdinand in the England team? Don't make me laugh. Every recent successful international side has had a clear identity. You could even include wales in that in the euros. Can you say what our identity is? We need to form one and develop it as much as we can. Until we get one we will continue to be failures. Saying we don't have the technical players is an easy cop out. The likes of Lallana, Henderson and Sterling currently look like superstars for their club sides, the reason is because their managers for their club sides have a clear identity to get the best out of the players

No, but we didn't play Greece, we got knocked out by a Portuguese team that were technically better than us.

Identity this, philosophy that. You sound like a pundit. I have no idea what you are asking when you ask what our 'identity' is. We are a football team that should be using adaptable tactics/formations to suit our opponents on the day. 

Is that the same Lallana that has 3 goals in his last 3 England games? And the Henderson that is establishing himself as our future captain?

[David]

On the Southgate issue, for me he would be an even worse appointment than Sam, a manager with just one job to his name where he lost more games than he won prior to joining the England setup after a 4 year break.

We have a squad of players that work week in week out with Klopp, Wenger, Mourinho, Conte turning up to England duty and working under the likes of Allardyce and Southgate. 

Forget the buzzwords like G Star said, indentity, philosophy all that ******, we need a manager that has worked at the top, a winning manager that has a clue what he's doing against the top sides which won't be a Englishman.

Won't happen tho, the complete and utter bobblehead self confessed non footballing experts that are making the appointment will lump us with Southgate and scratch their baboon like heads in disbelief of fans becoming even more disillusioned with the national team.

This is England, sorry Bris but this job CAN attract the best of the best if we had an ounce of ambition.

Makes you wonder if they are really that stupid or scraping the English barrel of averageness (which is a compliment for Southgate) a cost cutting exercise as we still struggle to pay for Wembley, if so I understand but look no further than Eddie Howe, we may lose big games, tactically outwitted by the winning managers but it would be a lot more exciting football on the pitch than a Gareth Southgate side.

 

[cannable]

3 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

No, but we didn't play Greece, we got knocked out by a Portuguese team that were technically better than us.

Identity this, philosophy that. You sound like a pundit. I have no idea what you are asking when you ask what our 'identity' is. We are a football team that should be using adaptable tactics/formations to suit our opponents on the day. 

Is that the same Lallana that has 3 goals in his last 3 England games? And the Henderson that is establishing himself as our future captain?

Who has that ever worked for?

[DEL]

4 hours ago, McLovin said:

Maybe because it was a friendly and he was trying things out?Friendlies mean f all. The majority of the team yesterday for Spain played under the same manager a few years ago for the Spanish youth teams. In contrast, only Danny rose in the England squad played in the same tournament. I saw a message from a Spanish journalist that Spain have been trying out a 3 at the back against weak teams. That's how far England have fallen. Can you imagine any English coach experimenting? Friendly games are for trying new things out not to win at all costs. I knew England were going to fail in the euros after the overreaction after we beat Germany. In that game Germany tried new things out which is what we should have been doing. I'm a firm believer that players under required age should be playing for the u23s. Rashford,Stones,Dier,Kane and Sterling shouldn't be in the England squad until they have had as much experience as possible. The likes of Saul(a champions league finalist with Atletico Madrid) and hector bellerin are still regularly playing with the Spanish u 21s in order to get as much experience of international football before moving up to the seniors which is what we should be doing. Instead any hype job like rashford gets thrown straight into the England squad. Makes me boil as people expect these players to be the finished article

Rashford 

Stones

Dier

Kane 

Sterling 

all of them are good enough in England first team. Stop embarrassing yourself and stop hyping up Spain. It's cringey. 

[DEL]

Anyway Southgate will get the job. 

[WhiteHorseRam]

Haven't read back through the thread, but .......

No.

I wonder if the FA actually really want to have a successful national team, or would generally just  have someone none controversial and compliant so they can concentrate on the main business, keeping the money coming in.

 

[Van der MoodHoover]

17 minutes ago, WhiteHorseRam said:

Haven't read back through the thread, but .......

No.

I wonder if the FA actually really want to have a successful national team, or would generally just  have someone none controversial and compliant so they can concentrate on the main business, keeping the money coming in.

 

Spot on in my view . the game in this country has completely sold itself out to commercial interests.

Clubs are franchises not clubs ,  the national team just a qualification vehicle to make sure tournament TV rights can be sold for max amount .  oh and to showcase the English players who could be flogged for the most cash.

The players of course only understand this to a limited degree . the hierarchy is disingenuous in that it peddles the notion that a successful national team is a prerequisite which is not true.

To get a truly winning and competitive national side we need to get the best coach and have a reason ,  within the fa structures ,  for the team to win stuff . 

[G STAR RAM]

44 minutes ago, cannable said:

Who has that ever worked for?

I'm not saying have a different formation every match or anything silly like that.

Last night was a perfect example though, a game where we knew we would not have a lot of the ball so played on the counter attack.

For 95% of games England are going to have the majority of possession and need to work on breaking teams down (which most of the time they manage) it's the other 5% of games where we need to be a bit more clever.

[WhiteHorseRam]

3 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

I'm not saying have a different formation every match or anything silly like that.

Last night was a perfect example though, a game where we knew we would not have a lot of the ball so played on the counter attack.

For 95% of games England are going to have the majority of possession and need to work on breaking teams down (which most of the time they manage) it's the other 5% of games where we need to be a bit more clever.

The 95% of games - the tournament qualification games and friendlies.

5% - the few games we play at the tournaments before we are knocked out by giants such as Iceland.

I want an England team that wins things in my lifetime. The FA needs to do some radical thinking about how to make this happen as the national team is just performing more and more poorly.

What if 'England' played as a stand-alone team in the PL? (although it might get relegated ....) I know its a daft idea but this is the kind of thinking needed. After the summer did they have a serious crisis meeting and put everything else on hold?

Southgate alone is not the answer.

[G STAR RAM]

3 minutes ago, WhiteHorseRam said:

The 95% of games - the tournament qualification games and friendlies.

5% - the few games we play at the tournaments before we are knocked out by giants such as Iceland.

I want an England team that wins things in my lifetime. The FA needs to do some radical thinking about how to make this happen as the national team is just performing more and more poorly.

What if 'England' played as a stand-alone team in the PL? (although it might get relegated ....) I know its a daft idea but this is the kind of thinking needed. After the summer did they have a serious crisis meeting and put everything else on hold?

Southgate alone is not the answer.

I'm just not sure what the answer is.

How do you get your team ready for the 5% of games?

[WhiteHorseRam]

Just now, G STAR RAM said:

I'm just not sure what the answer is.

How do you get your team ready for the 5% of games?

Over to the FA for that one.

I think the 'England Manager' job is too big for one man. They need a really strong team manager to actually do the business (Klopp, Ferguson, Conte level), supported by a load of ex-England player coaches/mentors (why do our ex players now seem to completely walk away?), and a Malcolm Tucker type media person to make the lives of any football correspondents who talk sausage a total misery.

That's just for starters.