The dynamic between Hughes and Butterfield

[Half fan]

Is the seat next to you empty, brady1993, so I can buy the half-season ticket for it?

You must be in West Upper, certainly near the Directors' Box or deservedly in it.

Keep up the good work.

[angieram]

 

Don't just watch the goal, watch the reply with the whole build up. Don't know what you call that give and go, but Hughes' positional sense just made that goal. Lovely.

 

[TelTheRam]

11 hours ago, eddie said:

The dynamic between Hughes and Chalobah was pretty good this evening too for the England U21s.

I thought Chalobah was superb and deserved MOM.

[ramsbottom]

I know I go on about this a lot, but I'm still not sold on Butterfield.  He's a tidy player and in Clement's (and Waffel's to an extent) side, with it's slower tempo he was well suited.  But when we try to play faster his insistence on taking 3 touches slows promising attacks down.  Out of all the combos we could have in midfield I'd rather see - 

-----------Thorne

Johnson-----------Hughes

or

-----------Johnson

Bryson-------------Hughes

[jono]

22 hours ago, brady1993 said:

Agree 100%. Johnson is doing a fine job in there but a fit Thorne will improve us.

Really interesting and fully thought through thread Brady. .. I'd add that  I think Thorne and Johnson bring different things. George on song is the best DM and string puller in the league .. It will be interesting to see how much more of Butterfield and Hughes his presence releases to do the exciting stuff. Johnson is a bit of a conundrum for me .. He is tough and strong as a DM but doesn't have the range or precision in passing and tackling .. BUT .. He is a disrupter and can play unpredictable passes in to dangerous areas. George has a great shot on him but Johnson for me can be more of an attacking threat. My worry with Johnson is the mistakes and his form 1 v 1 I'd back GT to win a tackle but Johnson has some interesting dynamic sides to his game that GT doesn't. I was also worried about GT's reactions which seemed slower last time he was back .. Doubtless due to fitness but all the same he wasn't quite the revalation he was when he first shone for us. 

As with everything I think it is about balance ... One thing for sure, you are right about Will being much more of a contributor when he is high up the pitch and closer to the main striker 

[Coneheadjohn]

Great thread.I think they should have considered you for a coaching position.

[BramcoteRam84]

On 11 November 2016 at 10:00, ramsbottom said:

I know I go on about this a lot, but I'm still not sold on Butterfield.  He's a tidy player and in Clement's (and Waffel's to an extent) side, with it's slower tempo he was well suited.  But when we try to play faster his insistence on taking 3 touches slows promising attacks down.  Out of all the combos we could have in midfield I'd rather see - 

-----------Thorne

Johnson-----------Hughes

or

-----------Johnson

Bryson-------------Hughes

Spot on regarding Butterfield. Technically excellent but slows play far too much, and doesn't have the engine to be effective without the ball. He was non existent second half against Wolves. Bryson would give better balance. 

Agree with all other points in this thread though. Pleased we're adapting to a front man who is stretching defences and Hughes is revelling in his role further forward. Just hope we can hang onto him in January.

[brady1993]

On 11/11/2016 at 10:00, ramsbottom said:

I know I go on about this a lot, but I'm still not sold on Butterfield.  He's a tidy player and in Clement's (and Waffel's to an extent) side, with it's slower tempo he was well suited.  But when we try to play faster his insistence on taking 3 touches slows promising attacks down.  Out of all the combos we could have in midfield I'd rather see - 

-----------Thorne

Johnson-----------Hughes

or

-----------Johnson

Bryson-------------Hughes

I think you're being particularly harsh on Butterfield and whilst he may dwell on the ball occasionally from time to time, I don't believe it's anywhere near to the degree you're making it out to be. He is technically very astute and I think he will flourish under McClaren's coaching. 

I'm not sure I follow your rationale about your two lineups, particularly given your complaints over Butterfield, surely Johnson is far less suited to our style of play particularly in an advanced role ?

[brady1993]

On 11/11/2016 at 14:55, jono said:

Really interesting and fully thought through thread Brady. .. I'd add that  I think Thorne and Johnson bring different things. George on song is the best DM and string puller in the league .. It will be interesting to see how much more of Butterfield and Hughes his presence releases to do the exciting stuff. Johnson is a bit of a conundrum for me .. He is tough and strong as a DM but doesn't have the range or precision in passing and tackling .. BUT .. He is a disrupter and can play unpredictable passes in to dangerous areas. George has a great shot on him but Johnson for me can be more of an attacking threat. My worry with Johnson is the mistakes and his form 1 v 1 I'd back GT to win a tackle but Johnson has some interesting dynamic sides to his game that GT doesn't. I was also worried about GT's reactions which seemed slower last time he was back .. Doubtless due to fitness but all the same he wasn't quite the revalation he was when he first shone for us. 

As with everything I think it is about balance ... One thing for sure, you are right about Will being much more of a contributor when he is high up the pitch and closer to the main striker 

I agree with all but a couple things here @jono.

Firstly I actually think that Thorne carries more of an attacking threat. Johnson probably shades it in terms of direct goal threat what with his aerial ability from crosses but Thorne's fantastic vision, passing and his ability to dictate a game can really carve a team open.

Secondly I think Thorne not being a revelation as much this time was in part due to finding fitness, part due to being man marked in every game and part due to having some players with iffier technique around him (Johnson and Shackell spring to mind).

[brady1993]

On 12/11/2016 at 19:55, BramcoteRam84 said:

Spot on regarding Butterfield. Technically excellent but slows play far too much, and doesn't have the engine to be effective without the ball. He was non existent second half against Wolves. Bryson would give better balance. 

Agree with all other points in this thread though. Pleased we're adapting to a front man who is stretching defences and Hughes is revelling in his role further forward. Just hope we can hang onto him in January.

I think you're contradicting yourself here a little. My whole point with this thread is that a Butterfield/Hughes midfield gives us better balance with a front man who can stretch defences and is the reason why Hughes can get further forward than previous seasons. If you have Bryson in there he becomes the most attacking player because he is at his best when he can make runs beyond the defensive line, this necessitates Hughes dropping back a little to connect play together.

[brady1993]

On a slight tangent as I've seen it brought it up a couple of times, notably by @ramsbottom and @jono recently in this thread, what have people seen in Johnson to suggest he could play further forward in midfield with how we want to play football ? 

Personally I can't see it but I keep seeing it get mentioned and wonder if I'm missing something about him.

[Rev]

21 minutes ago, brady1993 said:

On a slight tangent as I've seen it brought it up a couple of times, notably by @ramsbottom and @jono recently in this thread, what have people seen in Johnson to suggest he could play further forward in midfield with how we want to play football ? 

Personally I can't see it but I keep seeing it get mentioned and wonder if I'm missing something about him.

He got 16 goals in Norwich's promotion season, I'd guess that makes him more effective forward than back, regardless of role in the team.

Not saying it's right one way or the other, but for us right now, I'd see him as a Thorne substitute.

[brady1993]

9 minutes ago, reveldevil said:

He got 16 goals in Norwich's promotion season, I'd guess that makes him more effective forward than back, regardless of role in the team.

Sure that's a fair point and I do agree that he carries a goal threat but that was in a different side, playing different football and if you look at his past history was something of a one-off. It doesn't consider how he'd fit into our style of play.

14 minutes ago, reveldevil said:

Not saying it's right one way or the other, but for us right now, I'd see him as a Thorne substitute.

I agree with you here. I view him as competition/cover for defensive midfield.

[jono]

22 minutes ago, brady1993 said:

On a slight tangent as I've seen it brought it up a couple of times, notably by @ramsbottom and @jono recently in this thread, what have people seen in Johnson to suggest he could play further forward in midfield with how we want to play football ? 

Personally I can't see it but I keep seeing it get mentioned and wonder if I'm missing something about him.

Hi Brady.

first of all I don't think either of us has it nailed on because each game and each opponent is different so there would be occasions where Johno is the last player I'd want as an attacking midfielder. And a counterpoint to that is Hughes has added a defensive element to his game that just wasn't there two years ago. He is physically stronger and tackles much better than he did and can comfortably play DM ...but he is no way a DM in the pure sense. He can play the role but it isn't the best use of his skill set.

so having given myself a get out clause ..... I think there are 2 parts of Johnsons game that, in the right circumstances, make him useful in an attacking sense. On song he is a bit of a buccaneer raider. Strength, positivity and a shot. That's easy to see but the part I like is the vision he has to send weird high passes in to the box or over defenders heads , those oblique angled flicks and lobs in dangerous areas. I don't think we have seen half of what BJ has to offer. He was great for his first 2 or 3 games until he got clementised. All the bravado got sat on. What was left was the worst bits .. Too hurried, imprecise, clumsy, error prone .. All forgivable when the good stuff was there as well but it wasn't 

he won't work in EVERY game as a partner for Will but he has something good that is unpredictable, muscular and dangerous. I can't say what his best position is because we haven't seen his full skill set but I am convinced there is a lot lot more to BJ than we have seen in a Derby Shirt and some of it would be good in a forward position against particular teams and sets of players. Deciding which ones is I suppose SM's job  ( always assuming he agrees with me in principal  )

[ramsbottom]

13 hours ago, brady1993 said:

On a slight tangent as I've seen it brought it up a couple of times, notably by @ramsbottom and @jono recently in this thread, what have people seen in Johnson to suggest he could play further forward in midfield with how we want to play football ? 

Personally I can't see it but I keep seeing it get mentioned and wonder if I'm missing something about him.

If Thorne comes back in he'll be in that quarterback role, recycling possession and getting us back on the front foot.  Hughes will sit further forward to look for that killer pass.  And either Bryson or Johnson will be the one to assist the both of them, they help break up play when we don't have the ball, and offer a further option in attack when we do.  Both of them can be the water-carrier.  I'm not saying either of them are world beaters but both them can fill a role in midfield better than Butterfield...

[JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta]

Butterfield takes one too many touches for my liking and I have spotted him giving the ball away on a few occasions when there was a simple pass to be made. If McLaren can help him iron that out he is absolutely fine.

[Anag Ram]

What has happened to Butterfield's shooting?

He has always carried a goal threat but this season appears to be rushing things and sending the ball over the bar.

Maybe he's trying a bit too hard and needs a bit of reassurance about his place?

I would love to see George back but that's a long way off and BJ is doing fine there for now.

[brady1993]

Good response @jono, and you've made me rethink things a little.

13 hours ago, jono said:

first of all I don't think either of us has it nailed on because each game and each opponent is different so there would be occasions where Johno is the last player I'd want as an attacking midfielder. And a counterpoint to that is Hughes has added a defensive element to his game that just wasn't there two years ago. He is physically stronger and tackles much better than he did and can comfortably play DM ...but he is no way a DM in the pure sense. He can play the role but it isn't the best use of his skill set.

I agree with all this and just as an added little tidbit Hughes has made more succesful tackles this year than any other player in the championship. http://www.squawka.com/football-stats/english-football-league-championship-season-2016-2017

13 hours ago, jono said:

so having given myself a get out clause ..... I think there are 2 parts of Johnsons game that, in the right circumstances, make him useful in an attacking sense. On song he is a bit of a buccaneer raider. Strength, positivity and a shot. That's easy to see but the part I like is the vision he has to send weird high passes in to the box or over defenders heads , those oblique angled flicks and lobs in dangerous areas. I don't think we have seen half of what BJ has to offer. He was great for his first 2 or 3 games until he got clementised. All the bravado got sat on. What was left was the worst bits .. Too hurried, imprecise, clumsy, error prone .. All forgivable when the good stuff was there as well but it wasn't 

he won't work in EVERY game as a partner for Will but he has something good that is unpredictable, muscular and dangerous. I can't say what his best position is because we haven't seen his full skill set but I am convinced there is a lot lot more to BJ than we have seen in a Derby Shirt and some of it would be good in a forward position against particular teams and sets of players. Deciding which ones is I suppose SM's job  ( always assuming he agrees with me in principal  )

I can't really argue with any of that, I think that's a decent assessment of him. Having thought about it I can see what you mean about him being useful against specific opposition or as a way of changing a game not going your way (for example the opposition is sitting really deep and you can't break them down, so want a real threat from crosses). With that said (and I don't think you're arguing for this at all) he wouldn't be a part of my Plan A midfield if Thorne is fit because it requires technically gifted players who are comfortable receiving the ball at any time.

[brady1993]

1 hour ago, ramsbottom said:

If Thorne comes back in he'll be in that quarterback role, recycling possession and getting us back on the front foot.  Hughes will sit further forward to look for that killer pass.  And either Bryson or Johnson will be the one to assist the both of them, they help break up play when we don't have the ball, and offer a further option in attack when we do.  Both of them can be the water-carrier.  I'm not saying either of them are world beaters but both them can fill a role in midfield better than Butterfield...

Ok there is a couple points I want to address one regarding Bryson and one regarding Johnson but before I do I will say I completely agree about Thorne.

First off Bryson. Personally I think Bryson is one of the top 5 best players in the squad when utilised correctly but we can't do that right for reasons I addressed in the OP. He has never been good at being the water carrier, he rarely breaks play up and doesn't look nearly the same player when asked to support play rather than spearhead it. Instinctively he would become the most attacking midfielder out on the pitch and it would move Hughes into a more supportive role, something which I don't think is the best balance right now.

Secondly Johnson. I agree that Johnson could be the 'water carrier' as you define it. My point of contention with this is do we need one with Thorne sitting in and with our most attacking midfielder (Hughes) being defensively sound. My second problem with this idea is Johnson is just not technically good enough for a side that wants to play to a high intensity possession oriented game like we do. He's far more criminal than Butterfield in dawdling on the ball or losing possession.

 

[brady1993]

1 hour ago, JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta said:

Butterfield takes one too many touches for my liking and I have spotted him giving the ball away on a few occasions when there was a simple pass to be made. If McLaren can help him iron that out he is absolutely fine.

Whilst I agree that Butterfield can dawdle at times, I think people are exaggerating the nature of it. If you look at the ratio of touches to passes in the last few games it's usually comparable to Hughes suggesting that for the majority of the game he's getting the ball away quick  enough (against Wolves he had 79 touches and made 66 passes, Hughes had 69 touches and made 50 passes). Also with regards to giving the ball away, he currently has a 83.1% pass completion for the season which is really quite good.