sage Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 14 minutes ago, Uptherams said: You had a point that was relevant or accurate? I will play along. I said our main defensive problems are found further away from goal than our CBs. Ie full backs, centre midfield. Even to an extent beyond that. You quoted Boro as an example of how solid we should be. I pointed out that Boro are better defensively in CM and at full back than us. Point proven. You could use facts or theory to disprove this, or answer my question about the last goal we conceded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uptherams Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 2 minutes ago, sage said: I will play along. I said our main defensive problems are found further away from goal than our CBs. Ie full backs, centre midfield. Even to an extent beyond that. You quoted Boro as an example of how solid we should be. I pointed out that Boro are better defensively in CM and at full back than us. Point proven. You could use facts to disprove this, or answer my question about the last goal we conceded. No, I said that is what solid defending looked like. It's not the quality of goals conceded but the manner in which you concede. Our problem hasn't been further up the pitch when defending. You can't expect an opponent to never attack you or get past your CM. This is just getting ridiculous. Statements like you defend as a team are literally meaningless when you analyse all aspects of how a side defends over 90 minutes. You are saying Boro were better at defending than us. Yes, they were. So what's the issue? Sorry that I don't fall into the category of people who thinks all our problems are solved after one win and that we can then win the league or think we have nothing but problems after one loss and we will get relegated. This has all come from making this comment: Let's not get ahead of ourselves. Our whole backline was all over the place several times today and they failed to punish us. We need to judge our defenders on their defending over 90 minutes and not just when there is minimal pressure. The amount of goals we are conceding isn't a reflection of our defending. Carson has saved the defenders a fair few times now too. One game we don't concede late on and people have already forgotten previous matches? I don't expect us to begin to concede less than we have so far this season. But I can see us seeing games out and limiting sloppy defending over the rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sage Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 4 minutes ago, Uptherams said: No, I said that is what solid defending looked like. It's not the quality of goals conceded but the manner in which you concede. Our problem hasn't been further up the pitch when defending. You can't expect an opponent to never attack you or get past your CM. This is just getting ridiculous. Statements like you defend as a team are literally meaningless when you analyse all aspects of how a side defends over 90 minutes. You are saying Boro were better at defending than us. Yes, they were. So what's the issue? Sorry that I don't fall into the category of people who thinks all our problems are solved after one win and that we can then win the league or think we have nothing but problems after one loss and we will get relegated. This has all come from making this comment: Let's not get ahead of ourselves. Our whole backline was all over the place several times today and they failed to punish us. We need to judge our defenders on their defending over 90 minutes and not just when there is minimal pressure. The amount of goals we are conceding isn't a reflection of our defending. Carson has saved the defenders a fair few times now too. One game we don't concede late on and people have already forgotten previous matches? I don't expect us to begin to concede less than we have so far this season. But I can see us seeing games out and limiting sloppy defending over the rest. If you saw my match report you would be aware that I don't think we have solved our problems, defensively or in an attacking sense. I think many people read too much into a positive or negative result in isolation. We are at least 4 players short of being a top 6 team. However I think our defensive issues are greater at full back and DCM than at CB. I would be amazed if we don't see a DCM and a full back come in in January. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uptherams Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 4 minutes ago, sage said: If you saw my match report you would be aware that I don't think we have solved our problems, defensively or in an attacking sense. I think many people read too much into a positive or negative result in isolation. We are at least 4 players short of being a top 6 team. However I think our defensive issues are greater at full back and DCM than at CB. I would be amazed if we don't see a DCM and a full back come in in January. I never said or implied you fall into that category. I was saying I don't. Personally I don't think we are short any players to finish 6th. 6th place is attainable for over half the teams in this league. Our main concern is the lack of goals. I think our manager can address that without new personnel. We can't just keep on discarding players permanently because they are currently out of form. By the time the Jan window opens I think people's concern will be in the form of bringing in one or two players to boost our options for in case a player get's injured or is out of form. To me what that will look like is Martin coming back, Grant coming back and signing a new wide player. That is what I think our manager would do if his aim was for 6th. But I don't think he will settle for that at all. He will want us to gain more points in the second half of the season than any other team. So I expect a WOW signing at least, even if it is on loan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brady1993 Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 12 minutes ago, sage said: If you saw my match report you would be aware that I don't think we have solved our problems, defensively or in an attacking sense. I think many people read too much into a positive or negative result in isolation. We are at least 4 players short of being a top 6 team. However I think our defensive issues are greater at full back and DCM than at CB. I would be amazed if we don't see a DCM and a full back come in in January. Largely agree with you here @sage and your previous posts in the thread. Pearce has been a revelation this season and has helped ease some of the problems we had with Shackell playing there. Just wanted to pick up on a couple of points though. I didn't read it so much as people thinking everything was rosy after saturday, it more seemed like to me people saw it as a another small-step in the right direction after a diabolical start to the season (which I gather from your posts that you agree with) and shere relief at actually looking like we might win a game or two. After all we need to relearn how to work before we can run (and to run we need work in the transfer market). This is being somewhat pedantic but I don't think we are as far as 4 players short of being a top 6 team, after all it's still largely the same squad that finished fifth last year and it's more we have 1 wardrobe shaped hole. I'd more say we need that kind of movement to be a real contender for promotion in the division and have a solid base for if we get promoted. Out of curiosity where do you think the 4 players are needed ? For me it's a good link-up player to player up top, competition at right back, competition at CDM and a top quality inside forward (sneaky suspicion this could end up being Vydra). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sage Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 I would include Martin (if he comes back) as one of the 4 players we need. I would suggest that we have 6 potential positions we could look at. I am suggesting that we can bring in 6 in one window or indeed should. They are in order of priority and based on playing 433. DCM - I cant see any sign of Thorne coming back and am beginning to fear the worst. We need someone who can drop between the CBs when the full backs push on, can break up attacks and is comfortable on the ball. If that player can pass like Thorne then it's a bonus. Hanson isn't good enough on the ball to play there. CF - Unless we change the way we play we need a CF who is comfortable with his back to goal and can link play up. LB - This could maybe be a loan but Forsyth is out all season and has now done the same knee twice. Olsson isnt good enough defensively and Lowe isn't ready to play week in week out. RB - Christie makes so many mistakes at the back it's frightening. He was better going forward on Saturday but better attacks would have crucified us down the left. Winger/Wide Forward - Obviously we have many of these players but at least 3 of them arent up to rhe task. I wouldnt sign one unless someone of real standout quality was available. It would make such a difference though. LCB - This will be controversial as Pearce has played well but if an excellent CB who can pass well out of defence with his left foot is available, it would make quite a difference. As i said i would only probably bring in 4 in terms of continuity but it would depend on who is avaliable and who we can get rid of. For example it is difficult to sign another wide forward if we still have Ince, Russell, Anya, Blackman, Camara and Weimann on the books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brady1993 Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 24 minutes ago, sage said: I would include Martin (if he comes back) as one of the 4 players we need. I would suggest that we have 6 potential positions we could look at. I am suggesting that we can bring in 6 in one window or indeed should. They are in order of priority and based on playing 433. DCM - I cant see any sign of Thorne coming back and am beginning to fear the worst. We need someone who can drop between the CBs when the full backs push on, can break up attacks and is comfortable on the ball. If that player can pass like Thorne then it's a bonus. Hanson isn't good enough on the ball to play there. CF - Unless we change the way we play we need a CF who is comfortable with his back to goal and can link play up. LB - This could maybe be a loan but Forsyth is out all season and has now done the same knee twice. Olsson isnt good enough defensively and Lowe isn't ready to play week in week out. RB - Christie makes so many mistakes at the back it's frightening. He was better going forward on Saturday but better attacks would have crucified us down the left. Winger/Wide Forward - Obviously we have many of these players but at least 3 of them arent up to rhe task. I wouldnt sign one unless someone of real standout quality was available. It would make such a difference though. LCB - This will be controversial as Pearce has played well but if an excellent CB who can pass well out of defence with his left foot is available, it would make quite a difference. As i said i would only probably bring in 4 in terms of continuity but it would depend on who is avaliable and who we can get rid of. For example it is difficult to sign another wide forward if we still have Ince, Russell, Anya, Blackman, Camara and Weimann on the books. A very fair assessment in my opinion. My couple of minor quibbles would be I think fixing the CF position is more important than CDM as I think the job Johnson has been doing there is adequate and we are sorely lacking that link between midfield and forwards in our play also I think bringing in a cover/replacement RB is more important than LB just because we have nothing in the way of genuine backup for Christie. You're spot on about wide forwards, we should only be looking to recruit a top drawyer player here who can make a real difference (it's what has annoyed me about signing Anya because he isn't any better than we already had). Whilst I see your point about LCB and recognise you consider it a low priority, I think we will struggle to do better than Pearce without paying serious money that's needed elsewhere. One point I think is worth making though is I think there is a chance some of the problems identified can be solved from within. I think there is a realistic shout that Vydra can adapt to playing the role we need for him upfront or we have a 'meet in the middle' scenario and if that doesn't work I think there is a realistic chance he'd be effective as a wide forward. George Thorne could come back all guns blazing after his injury, with Johnson and Hanson providing adequate backup. Christie could morph into a more rounded player working with Powell or maybe Anya could be converted to the position. Perhaps Lowe will start being able to play week in, week out. A lot of that is clearly hypothetical but I have hope that some of it could pan out and we may find our priorities in the window are a little different than they currently seem to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TelTheRam Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 1 hour ago, sage said: I would include Martin (if he comes back) as one of the 4 players we need. I would suggest that we have 6 potential positions we could look at. I am suggesting that we can bring in 6 in one window or indeed should. They are in order of priority and based on playing 433. DCM - I cant see any sign of Thorne coming back and am beginning to fear the worst. We need someone who can drop between the CBs when the full backs push on, can break up attacks and is comfortable on the ball. If that player can pass like Thorne then it's a bonus. Hanson isn't good enough on the ball to play there. CF - Unless we change the way we play we need a CF who is comfortable with his back to goal and can link play up. LB - This could maybe be a loan but Forsyth is out all season and has now done the same knee twice. Olsson isnt good enough defensively and Lowe isn't ready to play week in week out. RB - Christie makes so many mistakes at the back it's frightening. He was better going forward on Saturday but better attacks would have crucified us down the left. Winger/Wide Forward - Obviously we have many of these players but at least 3 of them arent up to rhe task. I wouldnt sign one unless someone of real standout quality was available. It would make such a difference though. LCB - This will be controversial as Pearce has played well but if an excellent CB who can pass well out of defence with his left foot is available, it would make quite a difference. As i said i would only probably bring in 4 in terms of continuity but it would depend on who is avaliable and who we can get rid of. For example it is difficult to sign another wide forward if we still have Ince, Russell, Anya, Blackman, Camara and Weimann on the books. Can't disagree with any of this but would like to add that the Winger/Wide Forward should be a naturally right-sided player. Everyone seems to be left-footed and I believe we are missing the swapping wings options that Jamie Ward gave us with Johnny Russell. And Pearce was excellent on Saturday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Animal is a Ram Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 Pearce in the EFL Team of the week Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1977 Ram Raider Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 And Hanson !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ollycutts1982 Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 31 minutes ago, Animal is a Ram said: Pearce in the EFL Team of the week Carson must of been close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperDerbySuperRams Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 Shackell playing for the 21's tonight. Still our best defender, in my opinion, but Pearce has been fantastic since McClaren has arrived Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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