Derby v Sheff Wed (three years ago)

[ariotofmyown]

5 hours ago, Mostyn6 said:

Yet somehow, only about ten or eleven games ago, we were playing for a chance to play at Wembley for a place in the premier league. Hmmmmm

And to think people on here used to routinely abuse Clough, who built that squad on a relative shoe string. But he did waste one whole million on Conor Salmon though. What a total loser. Remember the moaning about Buxton not been good enough, that stopped just before him became a cult hero? Non-league Nigel was a derogatory name in those days. A big club like Derby should be spending big money, not on average journeymen like Useless Eustace.

But hey, in my new revisionist past, I used to only complain about how we played under Nigel, not his recruitment. McLaren coming in showed up Clough for the poor manager he was. All he was capable of was building a great squad for pretty much nothing. In an alternative universe where he never left, we'd probably be in exactly the same position as we are now. Just above the bottom 3 and the same experts telling us where we were going wrong and how much better things could be.

Just one division higher though.

 

[needles]

It's not about bottle it's not about being failures or being mercenaries to not caring.

It's about ability. The 2014 side was very good. This side is not.

[Bris Vegas]

17 hours ago, Mostyn6 said:

Yet somehow, only about ten or eleven games ago, we were playing for a chance to play at Wembley for a place in the premier league. Hmmmmm

I can't stress how much better we are as a team with Chris Martin in it.

We won something like 52% of all the matches he played in, whereas that tally was down to 20% without him. 

The team that played Hull away in the second leg of the playoffs, again is much better than the one that started against Huddersfield. Martin, Hendrick and Weimann would be in the XI now.

I'm not picking on Vydra, but he really doesn't fit the profile in the same way Darren Bent didn't. We instantly become a worse team when we don't play a centre-forward whose main game is link-up play.

Forget goal potential. As a team we're far more balanced with a link-up striker in the 433 system. 

We're such a long way short of that 2013/14 team. We need a few windows to sort it all out.

[Dimmu]

4 minutes ago, Bris Vegas said:

I can't stress how much better we are as a team with Chris Martin in it.

We won something like 52% of all the matches he played in, whereas that tally was down to 20% without him. 

The team that played Hull away in the second leg of the playoffs, again is much better than the one that started against Huddersfield. Martin, Hendrick and Weimann would be in the XI now.

I'm not picking on Vydra, but he really doesn't fit the profile in the same way Darren Bent didn't. We instantly become a worse team when we don't play a centre-forward whose main game is link-up play.

Forget goal potential. As a team we're far more balanced with a link-up striker in the 433 system. 

We're such a long way short of that 2013/14 team. We need a few windows to sort it all out.

I'm afraid we will suffer badly until January. Vydra needs another striker but we don't have midfielders for 4-4-2. Only option would be 3-5-2 and we don't have CB's to play with it.

Horrible situation, shame there's no loan window.

[Seth's left foot]

13 minutes ago, Bris Vegas said:

I can't stress how much better we are as a team with Chris Martin in it.

We won something like 52% of all the matches he played in, whereas that tally was down to 20% without him. 

The team that played Hull away in the second leg of the playoffs, again is much better than the one that started against Huddersfield. Martin, Hendrick and Weimann would be in the XI now.

I'm not picking on Vydra, but he really doesn't fit the profile in the same way Darren Bent didn't. We instantly become a worse team when we don't play a centre-forward whose main game is link-up play.

Forget goal potential. As a team we're far more balanced with a link-up striker in the 433 system. 

We're such a long way short of that 2013/14 team. We need a few windows to sort it all out.

Excellent OP and this one, the Martin haters talk about his goals to games ratio recently but as a team we won a lot more with him in the side. Troy Deeney has only started to be more prolific over the last couple of seasons but linked Watford's forward play together in the same way.

In defence of Clement I believe he was given a shortlist of players to choose from for a certain position that he had identified from players that the recruitment team had scouted and analysed.

 

[brady1993]

11 minutes ago, Dimmu said:

I'm afraid we will suffer badly until January. Vydra needs another striker but we don't have midfielders for 4-4-2. Only option would be 3-5-2 and we don't have CB's to play with it.

Horrible situation, shame there's no loan window.

The strike force would have the same problem with a 442 or a 352. One of the two upfront has to be more of a link man (either by acting as a ten or a more traditional target man) or else it's very difficult to transition into attacking areas and we don't have a player in the squad capable of doing that.

The only intermediary solutions I can see are:

1) Get Vydra to adapt to the role through coaching. This is my personal hope for success right now. Vydra has good technical ability and works damn hard, hopefully it's just a case of learning the role.

2) Play Hughes or Butterfield as a 10 in a 4231 or 41212 ('Diamond'). The problem here is that would basically still by a 433 with a 4231 with the players we have available, and we don't have enough bodies to play the diamond properly.

Honestly I don't see any great options for a cohesive system because unfortunately we decided to hire a tactical dinosaur in the summer.

[toddy]

I'll get the DeLorean out of the garage again............

[jagerbob]

15 minutes ago, Seth's left foot said:

Excellent OP and this one, the Martin haters talk about his goals to games ratio recently but as a team we won a lot more with him in the side. Troy Deeney has only started to be more prolific over the last couple of seasons but linked Watford's forward play together in the same way.

In defence of Clement I believe he was given a shortlist of players to choose from for a certain position that he had identified from players that the recruitment team had scouted and analysed.

 

A fair few of his signings, particularly in the summer were through the door before Clement arrived.

It was mel, Sam, and Chris Evans recruitment behind the permanent signings of Ince and Bent, and the signings of Carson, Pearce, and Weimann. Dont really think Clement had a lot to do with the butterfield and Brad Johnson signings either, these were rushed through due to the Bryson and Hughes injuries.

[BondJovi]

15 hours ago, Cam the Ram said:

I blame the expectation. McClaren's first season, no pressure, we flourish. The next season, expectations increase a little and the team starts to feel it towards the latter end of the season (and injuries didn't help). Then Clement came in with massive expectations and we again crumbled. Next, Pearson and yet again, we can't handle the pressure.

The same could be said of the signings. Martin signs with no one expecting much, he bangs in 20+ goals. We then come to expect it from him, he struggles. Ince and Bent join with little to no pressure, they bang in the goals. They sign permanently and we expect 30+ goals combined during a full season and they struggle. Johnson and Butterfield sign for large fees so we are expecting a lot, they both perform below their previous standards.

I've not been in their situation but it don't half annoy me that quite a lot of this team have been signed/kept because they're seen as good enough to get us promoted, but in most of the big games they go missing and they regularly seem to lose concentration in key parts of the game.

Been saying this for a while. Kind of like Clough as a manager, when there isn't any expectation he is great. Like a lot of his signings, just can't do it when the pressure is there. We have a distinct lack of big game players, players who will drag us through when it gets tough.

Fans and players can't handle the expectations. There is no freedom to go and enjoy. A midtable finish might well do this club good.

[England Ram]

It's sadly an unbalanced squad. 

As we've said before, your options with a front 3 in a 433 are either 3 talented forwards who can fluidly interchange or one to hold up and play the other 2 in along with overlapping midfielders. 

We don't have 3 front players who are comfortable paying across the front effectively and fluidly, 1 maybe in Vydra, Ince too one footed, Russell no, Wieman no, Bent no, Blackman no. 

Hold up wise for the other 2 to play off..........Vydra if coached (means currently no), Blackman-too many wrong decisions so far but the closest realistic possibility and played with Vydra before, everyone else .......no. 

So, it will be a 'manage the best of an unbalanced bunch' left from the previous few transfer windows and either managers or recruitment team who were or are woefully poor at their jobs. 

[Seth's left foot]

18 minutes ago, jagerbob said:

A fair few of his signings, particularly in the summer were through the door before Clement arrived.

It was mel, Sam, and Chris Evans recruitment behind the permanent signings of Ince and Bent, and the signings of Carson, Pearce, and Weimann. Dont really think Clement had a lot to do with the butterfield and Brad Johnson signings either, these were rushed through due to the Bryson and Hughes injuries.

Rightly or wrongly I thought that he had a say on some of those players as discussions about his appointment were going well (Mel and Sam falling over themselves to woo him in Spain).

 

[B4ev6is]

I think derby should play carma in will huges role on saturday we could need a bit of tricky in midfield to help unlock shiffield wednesday defance with bryson enegry could work well.

I think maybe having vryda and andrew wiemen upfront could course shiffield wednesday probleams. We need a high pressing game on saturday question is how do we dp this for long periods of time.

[brady1993]

6 minutes ago, B4ev6is said:

I think derby should play carma in will huges role on saturday we could need a bit of tricky in midfield to help unlock shiffield wednesday defance with bryson enegry could work well.

I think maybe having vryda and andrew wiemen upfront could course shiffield wednesday probleams. We need a high pressing game on saturday question is how do we dp this for long periods of time.

I'm sorry @B4ev6is but that is one of the worst ideas I've heard in a while. Camara couldn't be more unsuited to playing in a central midfield role and it would be a complete disaster playing him there.

I don't think Camara has the brains to play in the side full stop never mind in the centre.

[B4ev6is]

Well he can help create things for us it is not so daft as it sound he can split there defance in half and plus he can help feed vryda he is not scared putting through balls to vryda.

[DEL]

[brady1993]

5 minutes ago, B4ev6is said:

Well he can help create things for us it is not so daft as it sound he can split there defance in half and plus he can help feed vryda he is not scared putting through balls to vryda.

What have you seen that would evidence this being the case? His record at creating chances is abysmal. All Camara has in his locker is beating players for pace, that's it. He possesses little in the way of football intelligence and isn't the most technically gifted either.

There is almost certainly a good reason why he has seen next to no game time.

 

[Doodle]

18 minutes ago, B4ev6is said:

I think derby should play carma in will huges role on saturday we could need a bit of tricky in midfield to help unlock shiffield wednesday defance with bryson enegry could work well.

I think maybe having vryda and andrew wiemen upfront could course shiffield wednesday probleams. We need a high pressing game on saturday question is how do we dp this for long periods of time.

This must be the most ill thought out post I've read in ages. Well since the one on the other thread 5 minutes ago about getting covered in beer being good fun. And just ignore it. 

[B4ev6is]

Well lets see carma is the one who set craig forsigh goal that ball that

Split prestion defance in half which let will huges put great cross in for craig forsigh to score from i think were lacking in midfield some who can beat a player with pace.

[brady1993]

2 minutes ago, B4ev6is said:

Well lets see carma is the one who set craig forsigh goal that ball that

Split prestion defance in half which let will huges put great cross in for craig forsigh to score from i think were lacking in midfield some who can beat a player with pace.

You mean the relatively straight forward pass into Hughes, that almost got cut out because he delayed releasing the ball ?

If that's the only example you have, you're going to really struggle to make a case for him....

When we have actually good central midfielders why would we try to shoehorn a brainless winger into that position? He isn't even the best 'wide player' we could shift into the centre.

[angieram]

Not so sure about Camara, @B4ev6is, but I would like to see Weimann given a start up front with Vydra.