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Thorne-Hughes-Butterfield midfield


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Ever since Butterfield signed I've wanted to see all 3 of these technical 'magicians' play together but it sadly hasn't happened yet, with Hughes' injury last season and Thorne's this season. The question is , do you think they would complement each other well or are they all a bit too similar? I think in the so called high pressure games we need a bit more control and composure in the midfield with the ability of being able to sustain possession even when pressured and these 3 would certainly give us that option. I would have liked to see a Thorne-Dawkins-Hughes midfield but it sadly never happened but hopefully McClaren will at least give this a try at one point when Thorne is fit.

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Hughes and Butterfield are too similar to play in a 2, but ever since the latter signed, I've been wanting to see this combination.

However, in the previous system, it would need one of the two of them to get forward quickly to support whoever plays the lone forward.

Depends if we play this way sans-Martin. Vydra, Wilson, Weimann or Bent aren't that type of player, could Blackman do it? He's been better at the hold up stuff than the aforementioned. 

 

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3 minutes ago, Animal is a Ram said:

Hughes and Butterfield are too similar to play in a 2, but ever since the latter signed, I've been wanting to see this combination.

However, in the previous system, it would need one of the two of them to get forward quickly to support whoever plays the lone forward.

Depends if we play this way sans-Martin. Vydra, Wilson, Weimann or Bent aren't that type of player, could Blackman do it? He's been better at the hold up stuff than the aforementioned. 

 

I think Butterfield could be the one to get forward quickly. He played in a higher position against hull away and got rewarded with 2 goals. His overall goals tally for last season was decent too. With Bryson getting on a bit, perhaps him and butters can be rotated for that spot alongside Hughes and Thorne?

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It wouldn't be my first choice midfield, they're all too similar and there's no one to break from midfield to support the strikers.  That said, we don't have any strikers who can hold up the ball either, so they've got no one to break past.  If we're going to make it work, it might be worth trying slightly more of a 4231, so Thorne sits, Hughes has a bit more license to roam around and get on the ball, and Butterfield is basically told to go and stand about 20 yards behind Vydra/Ince/whoever and not drop back into midfield at all.  So we build the team around getting the ball into Butterfield's feet and letting him thread it though for the forwards, instead of Martin dropping off the front and laying it off.  I do worry that that would be too easy to stop though - we'd have Butterfield being man-marked in no time, and you're slightly limiting Hughes opportunity to create as well.

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All very creative but feel we would miss a little "bite" with all 3 in. You need someone to do the less glamorous stuff to allow 2 playmakers to dictate the game. Or 1 playmaker and 2 grafters against a team who play 5 in midfield. As much as I would love to be wrong I'm not confident of getting the George back we had when he first arrived. Think we may need a replacement come Jan 

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Butterfield was the highest scoring central midfielder in the division last season, without playing every game and playing a system that really didn't compliment his style. 

I see that some players could really excel under McClaren, should we definitely go back to our old ways, and he is the main one. I also think Blackman and Camara may improve dramatically. 

Thorne, Hughes and Butterfield are the three most talented midfielders in the squad and need to be trialed. If we play possession football, those three can keep the ball all day. 

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30 minutes ago, Ambitious said:

Butterfield was the highest scoring central midfielder in the division last season, without playing every game and playing a system that really didn't compliment his style. 

I see that some players could really excel under McClaren, should we definitely go back to our old ways, and he is the main one. I also think Blackman and Camara may improve dramatically. 

Thorne, Hughes and Butterfield are the three most talented midfielders in the squad and need to be trialed. If we play possession football, those three can keep the ball all day. 

Going from left to right and back to left and back to right again. Another triangle of passing with Keogh and Christie, over to the left and another triangle.

"PASS THE BALL FORWARD" the crowd cries...

"LETS HAVE A RUNNER" etc

Sorry - but its essential to have a midfielder of the getting into the box, absolutely essential. Despite Butterfields goals, none of them do this. Only Bryson has ever done this for Derby in recent years.

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8 minutes ago, rammieib said:

Going from left to right and back to left and back to right again. Another triangle of passing with Keogh and Christie, over to the left and another triangle.

"PASS THE BALL FORWARD" the crowd cries...

"LETS HAVE A RUNNER" etc

Sorry - but its essential to have a midfielder of the getting into the box, absolutely essential. Despite Butterfields goals, none of them do this. Only Bryson has ever done this for Derby in recent years.

This. I'm not a big fan of Butterfield. He was a stop gap measure until Hughes came back. Hughes is back. Jacob is slow can't tackle and this season his shots have been way off. Most of all he's one of the primary offenders when it comes to opening up and creating space. Bryson and Hughes in front of Bradley or Jaime H for me. 

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We haven't seen Butterfield in a system that allows, let alone calls for fluid movement.

Stuck in a rigid 4-3-3 under Clement.
Hardly played under Wassall that I recall - mostly Hughes/Bryson/Hendrick
Stuck in a very rigid 4-4-2 under Pearson, sometimes out wide.

In my opinion, his better performances this season have been out on the wing where he has a bit of freedom.. Can we wait for him to play with the freedom that we saw in Mac's first tenure at Derby before we decide he's not the right fit?

Or is that the Derby way? 

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11 minutes ago, Animal is a Ram said:

We haven't seen Butterfield in a system that allows, let alone calls for fluid movement.

Stuck in a rigid 4-3-3 under Clement.
Hardly played under Wassall that I recall - mostly Hughes/Bryson/Hendrick
Stuck in a very rigid 4-4-2 under Pearson, sometimes out wide.

In my opinion, his better performances this season have been out on the wing where he has a bit of freedom.. Can we wait for him to play with the freedom that we saw in Mac's first tenure at Derby before we decide he's not the right fit?

Or is that the Derby way? 

No idea why np stuck him out on the wing. One of his strangest decisions 

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2 hours ago, McLovin said:

Ever since Butterfield signed I've wanted to see all 3 of these technical 'magicians' play together but it sadly hasn't happened yet, with Hughes' injury last season and Thorne's this season. The question is , do you think they would complement each other well or are they all a bit too similar? I think in the so called high pressure games we need a bit more control and composure in the midfield with the ability of being able to sustain possession even when pressured and these 3 would certainly give us that option. I would have liked to see a Thorne-Dawkins-Hughes midfield but it sadly never happened but hopefully McClaren will at least give this a try at one point when Thorne is fit.

Its a fair idea but like others have said, they are all quite similar & the ideal midfield has a bit of blend.

For me, I'd like to see at least 2 of the 3 playing at any one time in a 3 man centre midfield (thats our strongest area so may as well adapt the formation to reflect this) to supply the creativity needed to open teams up but with a designated defensive midfielder holding. This assumes that Thorne would play slightly further up the pitch once he returns - I believe he could cause much more damage in tandem with Hughes/Butterfield up the park, particularly now we have a bit of pace up top/wide to stretch teams & open up space in midfield. Clearly a DM would need to be confident enough to receive possession & be tactically disciplined within this formation. 

Using a 3 man centre midfield with a holding midfielder would also bring the best out of Bryson too, should he be preferred - we've missed his goal contribution.

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I actually think what a lot of people are missing is that the dynamic between the midfield will be quite different to when Martin played up front. It's all a matter of who occupies what space on the pitch.

When we attacked Martin was essentially used as a static '10', he would drop right into the midfield to collect the ball and look to play in a runner. For this to be effective one of the midfielders needed to be always looking to break past him and the defensive line, effectivley becoming the '9' in our system. If you go back and watch our play under Mac previously, Bryson and Hendrick would frequently be the most advanced player in the final third whilst Martin dropped off a little. This obviously simultaneously played to Martin's and Bryson/Hendrick's strengths.

Now Vydra is a very different player, his game is far more about make runs and stretching the back line  and far less about coming short. This opens up space in a different area of the pitch, namely just in front of the centrebacks or the space where a '10' would normally occupy which is before where Martin would be. This means we need a player to take advantage of this space and float just in front of the back 4 rather than trying to break in behind. 

My hypothesis is that Butterfield is better suited to take advantage of this space than any other player in the squad. His shooting from the edge of the box is probably the best in the squad, he has better vision than Bryson and has better technique and composure to operate in those tight pockets just in front of the back four. Also Hughes is better when he is the slightly more 'reserved' of the two attacking midfielders. This for me means Butterfield plays as the most advanced midfielder if we have a striker like Vydra upfront.

Too be honest though it's just nice to have three quality attacking midfielders in Hughes, Bryson and Butterfield. For me each one should have some amount of game time in every match.

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Im not sure about Butterfield if we do go back to playing the old way.

You need a greater level of fitness to play for us in the advanced midfield positons.

Whether its running at players in the wide positions, or simply in terms of work rate to adapt to the Counter pressing style.

 

In a way I really want to see Butterfield play for us, as he is the only one who can take a decent set piece.

and hes one of the few who likes to take a pop at goal from outside the box.

Sadly for me, he just doesnt have the right energy levels to compete with Bryson or even Bradley Johnson.

I actually think BJ is a better option than Butterfield as backup to hughes and Bryson in terms of his energy levels.

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6 minutes ago, jagerbob said:

Im not sure about Butterfield if we do go back to playing the old way.

You need a greater level of fitness to play for us in the advanced midfield positons.

Whether its running at players in the wide positions, or simply in terms of work rate to adapt to the Counter pressing style.

 

In a way I really want to see Butterfield play for us, as he is the only one who can take a decent set piece.

and hes one of the few who likes to take a pop at goal from outside the box.

Sadly for me, he just doesnt have the right energy levels to compete with Bryson or even Bradley Johnson.

I actually think BJ is a better option than Butterfield as backup to hughes and Bryson in terms of his energy levels.

I feel this is categorically wrong. It's absolutely paramount in 'Mac's system' that you are comfortable on the ball and can easily retain possession under pressure, particularly for the advanced midfielders. Johnson would be a disaster waiting to happen in such a system in an advanced role because of his frankly poor ball retention.

Butterfield has the necessary brain and technical ability to succeed in 'Mac's system'.

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