G STAR RAM Posted November 8, 2016 Share Posted November 8, 2016 5 hours ago, Bris Vegas said: Interesting that you think that. City's squad isn't really that good is it? Aside from Silva, De Bruyne and Aguero, would you consider any of their other players world class? City finished fourth last season for a reason. The likes of Raheem Sterling, John Stones and Leroy Sane have potential, but they're nowehere near top level status yet. Look at City's line-up against Boro. The fullbacks Clichy and Zabaleta are past it and were never top level anyway, Kolorov at CB? Southampton have a better defene than City for instance. David Silva is good, but is he really better than Eden Hazard, Mesut Ozil or Philippe Coutinho? I wouldn't put Silva in the top five playmakers in the league and he's one of only three world class players City have got. I think Arsenal have got the best set of players in the league. I think Chelsea have the perfect system to get the most out of a pretty talented squad too. Liverpool have a huge advantage of not being in Europe. IMO Pep will cement super manager status if he wins the league title in his first season, but I wouldn't be surprised if it took him a few years to get the right players in. They're miles off Barcelona standard in terms of squad quality, therefore it was impressive to see how they beat them so well the other day. As for United and Mourinho. They won't make top four this season. IMO Chelsea and Liverpool, without Europe, are the most likely to win the league. Arsenal are just too inconsistent and Wenger too tactically naive when it really matters. Think you've proved my point. He's not really a super manager then. He's just good at spending vast sums of money on buying the best players in the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brammie Steve Posted November 8, 2016 Share Posted November 8, 2016 On 8 August 2016 at 11:53, LesterRam said: or that Clough fella Nigel? No, but seriously, Lord Brian was definitely in the top one! Sir Matt Busby was able to man manage George Best. PG could not manage Zlatan. He "drove a Porsche like a Fiat" JM is a showman, and a good one, but he could never have won the Prem with 5000-1 outsiders like Claudio has done. Brian Clough had to fight every step of the way to get cash out of Sam Longson. Money is no object to Mourinho or Ranieri. Nigel Clough made a decent team with nothing. I like Steve Mac too come to that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bris Vegas Posted November 8, 2016 Share Posted November 8, 2016 7 hours ago, G STAR RAM said: Think you've proved my point. He's not really a super manager then. He's just good at spending vast sums of money on buying the best players in the world. If you want to be the best team in the world, you have to have the best players in the world. Isn't that kind of obvious? Sure you can achieve something spectacular in a single campaign with an inferior squad (Leicester, Atletico, Inter), but name one side in modern day football which dominated over a number of years without having the best players... You can't. Pep is a super manager not just for his ability to win trophies, but his ability to improve very good players. He reinvented the game for a few years, and created the best club side the world has ever seen without the need to spend ridiculous sums. It takes a super manager to do that. If City are wise they will give Guardiola as long as he needs to mould his own squad all which are fluid in his own system. It's far more important for City to build long-term success rather than look at a short-term view. United and Mourinho on the other hand are all about short-term, and it again will be their downfall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mostyn6 Posted November 8, 2016 Author Share Posted November 8, 2016 43 minutes ago, Bris Vegas said: If you want to be the best team in the world, you have to have the best players in the world. Isn't that kind of obvious? Sure you can achieve something spectacular in a single campaign with an inferior squad (Leicester, Atletico, Inter), but name one side in modern day football which dominated over a number of years without having the best players... You can't. Pep is a super manager not just for his ability to win trophies, but his ability to improve very good players. He reinvented the game for a few years, and created the best club side the world has ever seen without the need to spend ridiculous sums. It takes a super manager to do that. If City are wise they will give Guardiola as long as he needs to mould his own squad all which are fluid in his own system. It's far more important for City to build long-term success rather than look at a short-term view. United and Mourinho on the other hand are all about short-term, and it again will be their downfall. yet, you don't think he should be winning the league with a team that has won it recently? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bris Vegas Posted November 8, 2016 Share Posted November 8, 2016 28 minutes ago, Mostyn6 said: yet, you don't think he should be winning the league with a team that has won it recently? City last won the league in the 2013/14 campaign. Their squad has regressed since then. Arsenal and Chelsea both have better squads right now IMO. I'm pretty sure Pep Guardiola has been given insurances by the City owners that he is their man, and that the plan is to build for long-term success rather than just for this season. That's the difference IMO between City and United. City went out and bought Sane and Stones, two players who have been signed with the long-term in mind while Gundogan is only 26. City only really spent big on Bravo for the short-term, Nolito was pretty moderate at £14m. I don't think Guardiola should be judged in terms of trophies in his first season. By all means judge him on the performance of key players, whether they've improved or not, and also entertainment. So far I believe he has ticked the boxes expected of him. Players like Sterling and De Bruyne have improved under him, they're certainly playing a better brand of football, and they've beaten the likes of Barcelona and United impressively. So, to answer your question, no I don't think he should be winning the league this season. What I do think he should be doing is setting in stone the blueprint for long-term success, and IMO he has so far achieved that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted November 8, 2016 Share Posted November 8, 2016 1 hour ago, Bris Vegas said: If you want to be the best team in the world, you have to have the best players in the world. Isn't that kind of obvious? Sure you can achieve something spectacular in a single campaign with an inferior squad (Leicester, Atletico, Inter), but name one side in modern day football which dominated over a number of years without having the best players... You can't. Pep is a super manager not just for his ability to win trophies, but his ability to improve very good players. He reinvented the game for a few years, and created the best club side the world has ever seen without the need to spend ridiculous sums. It takes a super manager to do that. If City are wise they will give Guardiola as long as he needs to mould his own squad all which are fluid in his own system. It's far more important for City to build long-term success rather than look at a short-term view. United and Mourinho on the other hand are all about short-term, and it again will be their downfall. If he is so good at improving very good players there should not really be any news for him to go spending huge sums of money then, the squad he already had must be worth hundreds of millions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bris Vegas Posted November 8, 2016 Share Posted November 8, 2016 10 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: If he is so good at improving very good players there should not really be any news for him to go spending huge sums of money then, the squad he already had must be worth hundreds of millions. Half their players have already had their best years. The likes of Zabaleta, Clichy, Kolarov, Fernandinho Toure, Navas, Silva, Sagna and Kompany are all in their 30s. He can help these players perhaps rediscover their top form, but none of them aside from Kompany (injury prone), Silva (not even top five best playmakers in the PL) and Toure (now 33) are nowhere near world class status. City need to build for the long-term, and in order to do so they will need to buy quality young players with potential. Guardiola can't be expected to turn City into the best team in the world with an ageing squad who finished fourth last season without spending. Expecting him to do so is frankly ridiculous. Of course he needs to spend huge sums on bringing in players with huge potential. There hasn't been a single club in modern football that has dominated without spending huge sums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted November 8, 2016 Share Posted November 8, 2016 1 hour ago, Bris Vegas said: Half their players have already had their best years. The likes of Zabaleta, Clichy, Kolarov, Fernandinho Toure, Navas, Silva, Sagna and Kompany are all in their 30s. He can help these players perhaps rediscover their top form, but none of them aside from Kompany (injury prone), Silva (not even top five best playmakers in the PL) and Toure (now 33) are nowhere near world class status. City need to build for the long-term, and in order to do so they will need to buy quality young players with potential. Guardiola can't be expected to turn City into the best team in the world with an ageing squad who finished fourth last season without spending. Expecting him to do so is frankly ridiculous. Of course he needs to spend huge sums on bringing in players with huge potential. There hasn't been a single club in modern football that has dominated without spending huge sums. Which is why I question the 'super manager' title. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mostyn6 Posted November 8, 2016 Author Share Posted November 8, 2016 pretty sure Fergie won the league, beating a younger City side, with some reet old fogies in the team Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bris Vegas Posted November 8, 2016 Share Posted November 8, 2016 30 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: Which is why I question the 'super manager' title. I think your definition of 'super manager' doesn't exist. Every manager who achieves long-term success has had to spend in order to stamp his ideas on a club, especially one which doesn't have a particular culture. There isn't a manager out there, past or present, that could go to City in their current condition and dominate both the PL and in Europe over the next 8-10 years without spending big. Nobody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bris Vegas Posted November 8, 2016 Share Posted November 8, 2016 2 minutes ago, Mostyn6 said: pretty sure Fergie won the league, beating a younger City side, with some reet old fogies in the team United finished 2nd on 89 points the year before. A big difference to the 66 which City posted last season. Ther oldest players were Carrick (31), Ferdinand (34), Vidic (31) and Evra (31). The rest of the squad which made 15+ PL starts were all under 30, including Van Persie and Rooney both in their primes, while others like Valencia, Young, Nani and Chicharito were all at a good age. Don't get me wrong, Fergie did an amazing job to win the league so comfortably with a squad that IMO was among his worst that he had. Probably one of the reasons he decided to retire on top. But I don't think you can compare the two at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted November 8, 2016 Share Posted November 8, 2016 1 hour ago, Bris Vegas said: I think your definition of 'super manager' doesn't exist. Every manager who achieves long-term success has had to spend in order to stamp his ideas on a club, especially one which doesn't have a particular culture. There isn't a manager out there, past or present, that could go to City in their current condition and dominate both the PL and in Europe over the next 8-10 years without spending big. Nobody. Being a 'super manager' isn't about dominating to me, it's about being able to challenge without only being able to do it with money. I would say Wenger and Simeone are good examples of managers that have not had ridiculous net spends who have built teams capable of competing. And why does the term only apply to Premier League and Europe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bris Vegas Posted November 8, 2016 Share Posted November 8, 2016 On 12/9/2016 at 22:30, Bris Vegas said: There are different types of managers. Some are experts in fighting relegation, some are experts in gaining promotion on a shoe-string budget, some are experts in actually building a club, some are experts in winning silverware and some are experts in developing players to world class levels. I think it's quite a sad state of affairs when success in management is only judged on major trophies. I doubt Mourinho could have built a club like Wenger did at Arsenl, likewise I doubt Wenger could get teams promoted through the Championship as often as say Warnock/McCarthy, likewise I doubt those two could do a Pulis/Allardyce and keep teams up year on year, likewise I doubt those two could develop world class players like Pep Guardiola can. I'd say there are a number of super managers, though super in terms of excelling in one particular type of job. If I was to stick my neck out and highlight one manager who has really achieved something extraordinary in modern times, I'd pick Diego Simeone. What he's done at Atletico Madrid is unbelievable. 1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said: Being a 'super manager' isn't about dominating to me, it's about being able to challenge without only being able to do it with money. I would say Wenger and Simeone are good examples of managers that have not had ridiculous net spends who have built teams capable of competing. And why does the term only apply to Premier League and Europe? My reply earlier in the thread. I agree that the brilliance of one manager shouldn't just be judged on winning titles. I'd consider some jobs far more impressive that doesn't involve winning any trophies. If Clough could establish Burton as a solid Championship side, I'd say that's a bigger feat than Mourinho going to United, spending a billion pounds and winning the PL title. I agree on Simeone, I think he has been a standout in the past few seasons of doing something truly remarkable. I still think Pep's work at Barcelona was genius, while Conte also did an amazing job of turning Juve into the new powerhouse in Italy after their demotion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RamNut Posted November 8, 2016 Share Posted November 8, 2016 Mourinho has lost it. having won the league with chelsea he completely cracked under the pressure, and everything fell to bits. Went to man Utd - was very disrespectful to LVG (ok i'm on my own there). Started spouted about winning the league (lol) and is now looking like the misery we remember from the latter days at chelsea. just shows what a genius that scottish chap was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted November 8, 2016 Share Posted November 8, 2016 1 minute ago, RamNut said: Mourinho has lost it. having won the league with chelsea he completely cracked under the pressure, and everything fell to bits. Went to man Utd - was very disrespectful to LVG (ok i'm on my own there). Started spouted about winning the league (lol) and is now looking like the misery we remember from the latter days at chelsea. just shows what a genius that scottish chap was. Billy Davies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mostyn6 Posted December 3, 2016 Author Share Posted December 3, 2016 Guardiola Massively over-rated... end of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bris Vegas Posted December 3, 2016 Share Posted December 3, 2016 8 minutes ago, Mostyn6 said: Guardiola Massively over-rated... end of. Because City just lost to Chelsea, despite being the better team? Guardiola needs time to mould his own squad. I'd argue there are at least six first-teamers there who simply don't fit in the style in which he wants to play. City have been impressive this season performance wise. Poor finishing and individual mistakes has cost them. Not sure how that is the manager's fault... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sexydadbod Posted December 3, 2016 Share Posted December 3, 2016 Wouldn't be surprised if Guardiola sold Aguero and went all out for Aubameyang next summer. Aguero doesn't suits Guardiola's teams. Pep didn't think twice before getting rid of a better player than Aguero in Samuel Ett'oo when he was at Barca. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mostyn6 Posted December 3, 2016 Author Share Posted December 3, 2016 10 minutes ago, Bris Vegas said: Because City just lost to Chelsea, despite being the better team? Guardiola needs time to mould his own squad. I'd argue there are at least six first-teamers there who simply don't fit in the style in which he wants to play. City have been impressive this season performance wise. Poor finishing and individual mistakes has cost them. Not sure how that is the manager's fault... Quit making excuses. Conte inherited a worse squad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bris Vegas Posted December 3, 2016 Share Posted December 3, 2016 2 minutes ago, Mostyn6 said: Quit making excuses. Conte inherited a worse squad No he didn't... Chelsea won the league 18 months ago. Besides Chelsea's side is a lot mor suited to Conte's style and the system they play. Guardiola is one of the best managers in the world. That's a fact, End of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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