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StivePesley

Universal Income

49 posts in this topic

2 hours ago, StivePesley said:

Read another good article on the Universal Income today

http://www.vox.com/conversations/2016/10/17/13245808/andy-stern-work-universal-basic-income-technology-artificial-intelligence-unions

This guys seems to think it's inevitable, due to automation. Particularly interesting is the point he makes when challenged with "Conservatives in particular will reject UBI as inherently un-American or an extension of the welfare state"

I'd never really thought of it that way before - that allowing all people to start from the same position and then leaving them to it is actually just as much a right-wing idea as a socialist idea.

Yeah it's right to think about it as providing everyone with the same solid foundation (currently too easy for people to fall into destitution). Then there is no excuse for people not succeeding since they'll have enough to get by all the time.

Will definitely happen, full automation is coming.

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On 7/16/2016 at 05:13, Shuff264 said:

Something that needs to be phased in slowly over time, with automation comes cheaper product but if no one is working whos going to buy anything?

This is basically one of the two cores of the argument, the other being that the cost of strong welfare system could ironically be better used actually giving people a standard basic income, than on deciding whether people need government assistance. 

Should definitely be careful in assuming that it's inevitable though, there will be a massive ideological battle before anything really happens. 

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A couple of interesting developments in this area

Trials being considered in Scotland
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/01/universal-basic-income-trials-being-considered-in-scotland

Finland has started a trial this month
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/01/finland-introduces-basic-income-unemployed-170103190406168.html

I'd be surprised if we don't see at least one country take this on wholesale within 10 years.

 

 

 

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13 minutes ago, StivePesley said:

A couple of interesting developments in this area

Trials being considered in Scotland
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/01/universal-basic-income-trials-being-considered-in-scotland

Finland has started a trial this month
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/01/finland-introduces-basic-income-unemployed-170103190406168.html

I'd be surprised if we don't see at least one country take this on wholesale within 10 years.

 

 

 

wouldn't this demotivate the workforce though, is it being used successfully in any other part of the world?

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17 minutes ago, LesterRam said:

wouldn't this demotivate the workforce though, is it being used successfully in any other part of the world?

There was a trial in Canada and the findings were that it had very little effect on people's motivation to work.

The theory is certainly based on the opposite. Providing a safety net actually motivates people more to innovate, take chances, try something different, volunteer etc

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Its a very interesting scenario, not sure if it would be a benefit of BREXIT though. (In the short term, we need to ensure that  we just have a pot to p**s in, whether it was made by R2D2 or fat Dave.)

I think the idea of work will change as robotisation (if that's the word) comes in.

Its interesting if you look back at what people did for a living in centuries gone by - you then realise how far we have already come. Chopping wood and turning a spit with a lump of meat on in it were big employment areas in 1600.

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20 minutes ago, WhiteHorseRam said:

"Chopping wood and turning a spit with a lump of meat on in it were big employment areas in 1600."

I've got a new idea for a hipster business.

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23 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

I've got a new idea for a hipster business.

The Memsahib's grandad was a basket-maker.

That probably explains why she married a basket-case.

 

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The trail in Canada wasn't true universal income, each member of the trail were given $200 per month, nowhere near enough to survive on. It basically subsidised their incomes so the results would have been misleading at best.

In theory universal income appears to be very productive, and in trails undertaken in India it was very successful, they took 20 villages containing 12,000 people in total and gave each of them a monthly payment of approximately $24 (calculated to be enough to survive on.) , even children were given a monthly payment.

These village communities actually thrived and with the reduced risk of possible individual economic failures, people started up micro businesses which benefited the villages.

The Indian government are now planning to retrial this using 1000 villages to confirm the original results and findings.

The main concern is would a similar experiment work in the western world, the Swiss held a national referendum to adopt universal income, potentially giving each person 30,000 Swiss francs per annum income,yet they voted against it.

 

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