Bris Vegas Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 12 hours ago, Red_Dawn said: Possibly as wrong a statement as you could ever hope to make. 9 times out of 10 a pure grappler will beat a pure striker. This has been proven in the UFC time and time and time again. The reason Rousey lost is that she's a massive hype job, and decided pig headedly to take on a world class boxer at her own game, a boxer who also is an excellent kickboxer and has trained MMA and grappling for years. This boxer is better than MMA attitude is just completely wrong, the minute the boxer gets to the mat the fight is over. I'm not denying that in confined spaces a grappler could beat a striker... The thing is, the octagon or ring isn't a confined space. An elite boxer uses footwork, cuts off the ring and manouvers to gain an advantage. An elite boxer would always win because they avoud getting hit. How do you get close enough to grapple? Run in, head down like a bull? An elite boxer would be quick enough to evade and strike at the same time. You can't compare an average boxer to an average grappler. I've never said otherwise and you're right, once the fight is on the mat it's game over. But getting to the mat is almost impossble against an elite boxer. Ronda Rousey said she's a shark and she's up against a lion. She said that once a lion is in the water, the contest is over and she'll just 'eat her up'. The thing is, how does a shark get the lion in the water without engaging it first? Not just any lion, an elite lion. Likewise, this attitude that an MMA fighter can beat an elite boxer just by getting them to the mat is wrong. Getting them to the mat first without getting seriously damaged is the challenge. 9/10 times against an elite boxer it simply won't come off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red_Dawn Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 26 minutes ago, Bris Vegas said: I'm not denying that in confined spaces a grappler could beat a striker... The thing is, the octagon or ring isn't a confined space. An elite boxer uses footwork, cuts off the ring and manouvers to gain an advantage. An elite boxer would always win because they avoud getting hit. How do you get close enough to grapple? Run in, head down like a bull? An elite boxer would be quick enough to evade and strike at the same time. You can't compare an average boxer to an average grappler. I've never said otherwise and you're right, once the fight is on the mat it's game over. But getting to the mat is almost impossble against an elite boxer. Ronda Rousey said she's a shark and she's up against a lion. She said that once a lion is in the water, the contest is over and she'll just 'eat her up'. The thing is, how does a shark get the lion in the water without engaging it first? Not just any lion, an elite lion. Likewise, this attitude that an MMA fighter can beat an elite boxer just by getting them to the mat is wrong. Getting them to the mat first without getting seriously damaged is the challenge. 9/10 times against an elite boxer it simply won't come off. You really need to go back and watch UFC 1, because then you are incredibly wrong. Royce Gracie came out, as a 180lb Jiu Jitsu Black Belt and rag dolled every single guy he went up against, sometimes giving upwards of 50lbs, boxers, kick boxers, taekwondo guys.. Martial Arts at that point changed forever. Even recently you had James Toney, multiple weight division world champion boxer stepped into the cage, and got submitted within about minute because he had zero takedown defence. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_g9sJ4bK5Q) This 'footwork' you speak of only works against someone who is throwing punches, if you don't know how to sprawl, or understand the process of under and over hooks, you are DONE. I don't care if you are an elite boxer or an amateur boxer - you stand almost no chance. I can't actually believe how out of the loop you are, it's almost as if the last 10 years of MMA hasn't gone on :/ Such a disproved and criticised viewpoint. Watch Joe Rogan pwn Boxing Lou Dibella on the very same subject below. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtKx41UdCj0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red_Dawn Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 It seems Bris your 'elite footwork' didn't work for poor old Art Jimmerson here Although as a nice story he learned the errors of his ways and amazingly he's now a BJJ Black belt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red_Dawn Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Some more watching for you to catch up mate.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzraPYQgBh4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anon Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 Surprisingly enough both sides of the debate have a point, but the debate won't go away because the "fight game" is all about hype and the promoters on either side have to push the supremacy of their discipline hard. The Rousey vs Mayweather talk is absolutely ridiculous, but what a marketing coup for UFC! Look at how much traffic it generated on tw@tter and, closer to home, when was the last time we discussed either boxing or UFC here before this nonsense arose? My advice, just watch the fights if you enjoy them and don't waste your time arguing with people over the internet about hypothetical confrontations that will never happen. We may as well debate whether Alexander The Great would beat Charlemange in battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jourdan Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 As skilled as Ronda is, she isn't powerful enough, well-rounded enough or calculated enough to be fighting men. I can get behind the idea that if Ronda were able to take Floyd down, it will take him out of his element for a brief moment given he hasn't had any MMA-based training. He won't know any of the fundamentals e.g. takedown defence, submission defence etc. and will probably lose composure. But let's be honest, he is a world class boxer and a former world champion. He isn't going to turtle up and lose those fighting instincts completely. They will kick in and he will be looking to land a punch in any way imaginable and in doing so, there would only be one outcome. Even scrambling for a throw or a takedown or securing a submission hold, Ronda is in close enough range to get hit. If you were looking for a sane, more reasonable discussion, it is better to compare Floyd Mayweather and Jose Aldo, who have both been world champions and fight in the same weight class - around 145lbs - in their respective sports. A pure boxing match would undoubtedly favour Mayweather. However an MMA fight would swing the pendulum considerably given Aldo is a black belt in Brazilian jiu-jitsu and his striking arsenal is greater. He could throw punches and not really bother Mayweather but I think it's the other weapons in his arsenal - being able to strike effectively and accurately with knees, elbows and using kicks that would leave Floyd - not by any means unable to defend himself - most definitely in a world of trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bris Vegas Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 3 hours ago, Red_Dawn said: You really need to go back and watch UFC 1, because then you are incredibly wrong. Royce Gracie came out, as a 180lb Jiu Jitsu Black Belt and rag dolled every single guy he went up against, sometimes giving upwards of 50lbs, boxers, kick boxers, taekwondo guys.. Martial Arts at that point changed forever. Even recently you had James Toney, multiple weight division world champion boxer stepped into the cage, and got submitted within about minute because he had zero takedown defence. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_g9sJ4bK5Q) This 'footwork' you speak of only works against someone who is throwing punches, if you don't know how to sprawl, or understand the process of under and over hooks, you are DONE. I don't care if you are an elite boxer or an amateur boxer - you stand almost no chance. I can't actually believe how out of the loop you are, it's almost as if the last 10 years of MMA hasn't gone on :/ Such a disproved and criticised viewpoint. Watch Joe Rogan pwn Boxing Lou Dibella on the very same subject below. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtKx41UdCj0 Living in Canada for a year about five years ago, they're all mad for UFC and I regularly watched it too - Anderson Silva in his prime was simply an outstanding striker and grappler. But you're missing what I'm saying. I'm talking about elite-level boxers, ones I refer to as elite is those who cut off the ring, use footwork etc. Not stand there and trade blows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 5 hours ago, Bris Vegas said: Anderson Silva in his prime was simply an outstanding striker and grappler. Was that with or without the drugs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red_Dawn Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 6 hours ago, Bris Vegas said: Living in Canada for a year about five years ago, they're all mad for UFC and I regularly watched it too - Anderson Silva in his prime was simply an outstanding striker and grappler. But you're missing what I'm saying. I'm talking about elite-level boxers, ones I refer to as elite is those who cut off the ring, use footwork etc. Not stand there and trade blows. So like I said, was James Toney not an elite boxer? Three weight world champion.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bris Vegas Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 10 hours ago, Red_Dawn said: So like I said, was James Toney not an elite boxer? Three weight world champion.. You keep using this example to back up your opinion, but it doesn't really sit with me. He was, once upon a time, an old school boxer using plenty of shoulder roles and head movement. But he wasn't the quickest, and at 42 he fought Couture thinking he could just stand there and trade blows. He actually made no attempt to move - he just stood there. I think we'll have to just agree to disagree on this matter. Until I see it for myself, I just can't fathom the idea that an elite boxer with movement nd defensive skills would lose to a grappler. But, I'll happily admit I'm wrong if it comes to light. Problem is, I don't think we'll ever find out - not fairly anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red_Dawn Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 This is the thing Bris, it has come to light - lots and lots and lots of times Like I said mate watch UFC 1 and see what you think. The bladed boxing stance alone is just asking for someone to single leg you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uttoxram75 Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 3 hours ago, Red_Dawn said: This is the thing Bris, it has come to light - lots and lots and lots of times Like I said mate watch UFC 1 and see what you think. The bladed boxing stance alone is just asking for someone to single leg you The FEC could have done with your expert knowledge at Trowell last season mate! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red_Dawn Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 44 minutes ago, uttoxram75 said: The FEC could have done with your expert knowledge at Trowell last season mate! Eh? What in comparison to your 'Derby Leicester Alliance'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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