davenportram Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 hi thanks for the links Daveo. As I said there are links to cancers, but the editor cut off the end of my post which said not proven yet. humans have circadian rythms which determine when certain things should happen, or the beat time to do things. We are hard wired to not eat during the night, and body temperature falls during the night too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenportram Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 If we're bringing up cancer links to night work, looks like half the country will need to go on strike including all the emergency servicesthere are limits to the number of night shifts they can do built into their terms and conditions. Its this that the tube workers want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 But going back to my suggestion, ask the workers who wants to do nights, how many shifts they are willing to do and create new jobs with the vacancies left. That way no worker is forced to do any extra night shifts. Everyone is a winner? no need for these limits to be agreed.All that health stuff isn't really relevant unless we stop the entire country at night, and yeah we are hard wired to sleep at night but theres plenty of people that enjoy night work and would be more suited, say insomnia or anxiety suffers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenportram Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 But going back to my suggestion, ask the workers who wants to do nights, how many shifts they are willing to do and create new jobs with the vacancies left. That way no worker is forced to do any extra night shifts. Everyone is a winner? no need for these limits to be agreed.All that health stuff isn't really relevant unless we stop the entire country at night, and yeah we are hard wired to sleep at night but theres plenty of people that enjoy night work and would be more suited, say insomnia or anxiety suffers. no where do I say stop night working. But rosters need limits on them to stop either a) employers rostering too many night shifts and ignoring their duty of care to employees or b) employees volunteering for an extreme amount of nights and risking their own health And in a safety critical job the effect of night s in terms of fatigue has to be factored in to any working conditions. TfL have responsibility to employees and passengers in my opinion if they don't put limits in place then they are ignoring those responsibilities Y Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ambitious Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 £50k a year for driving a feckin' toy train about some tunnels? seriously, it can't exactly be a hardest system to automate either. In 20 years time, I almost guarantee there will be no drivers on the underground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenportram Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 £50k a year for driving a feckin' toy train about some tunnels? seriously, it can't exactly be a hardest system to automate either. In 20 years time, I almost guarantee there will be no drivers on the underground. a day when I stop even thinking about using the tube. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ambitious Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 a day when I stop even thinking about using the tube.The problem is that it's absolutely vital to London, it's incredibly difficult to do anything when the tube is down and it makes sense for companies to start considering automation, especially when you get strikes like these. A few hundred million in R&D, testing and installation and you cut out human error all together. Service jobs will be more readily available, I imagine, so they could easily argue that it's still providing jobs...etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenportram Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 The problem is that it's absolutely vital to London, it's incredibly difficult to do anything when the tube is down and it makes sense for companies to start considering automation, especially when you get strikes like these. A few hundred million in R&D, testing and installation and you cut out human error all together. Service jobs will be more readily available, I imagine, so they could easily argue that it's still providing jobs...etc but no computer system ever made is bug or error free. Would you really trust a computer to run tube trains full of people ever? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daaave Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 They already run fully automated metros across Asia and Europe, it's not like it's a new thing. The DLR is pretty much fully automated too, the staff aren't responsible for any actual 'driving' on that service.Any answer other than yes to the question "would you really trust a computer to run tube trains full of people ever?" is ridiculous, sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TigerTedd Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 a day when I stop even thinking about using the tube.you don't use the DLR then? And Singapore has one of the best systems I've ever seen. Land with Apple cars and Google cars being worked on now, it'll soon be fully automated driving. If a computer can handle that, it can easily handle a train. A computer programme may not be bug free, but humans definitely aren't bug free. A computer might make 1 mistake in every 10,000 attempts, a human will make far more. And if it's a safety thing, can't run trains at night because drivers might be tired, then the only real option is full automation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TigerTedd Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 there are limits to the number of night shifts they can do built into their terms and conditions. Its this that the tube workers want.if this was the only issue, why haven't tfl done it? It seems a bit of a no brainier to simply put a clause in saying 'no worker is permitted to work more than x night shifts in a given period of time.' I can't see how that would cost tfl anything. So there must be more to it than that. And Daveo sites HGV drivers. I'll always side with the HGV drivers and bus drivers. You can't tell me their job is is not more technically difficult and potentially more dangerous than a tube driver's. They're governed by drivers hours, which allows them to drive up to 9 hours a day, with mandatory breaks, meaning it's considered safe and legal to work for up to 12 hours. The tube drivers have it ridiculously easy compared to this, but truck drivers don't moan about it. (Except for me, I'm moaning now). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 They already run fully automated metros across Asia and Europe, it's not like it's a new thing. The DLR is pretty much fully automated too, the staff aren't responsible for any actual 'driving' on that service.Any answer other than yes to the question "would you really trust a computer to run tube trains full of people ever?" is ridiculous, sorry.Technically The Smiler was a small driverless train and that ended well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfie Posted July 15, 2015 Author Share Posted July 15, 2015 Copied again from the original BBC article, just to clear up how automatic tube trains are & will be.More modern trains, making up the majority of stock, drive and stop themselves, relying on automatic signalling. On these, it's the driver's job to decide when to close the doors and leave stations. He or she can also override the system in case of an emergency, such as a customer falling on the track. All trains are set to move to the modern system by 2020, TfL says. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 So you can get paid 50k to open and close a train door and nap between stations?Where do I sign up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daaave Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 Technically The Smiler was a small driverless train and that ended well. I'm not exactly sure of the circumstances of the Smiler crash but as far as I understood it was caused by human error, although this would not have been possible had the fail-safes worked. Feel free to correct me though.A much more relevant example would have been the 2009 Washington DC Metro crash. Whilst it's worth noting that this crash almost certainly would have occurred with or without 'self driving' trains, there's definitely a strong argument it would've been much, much worse without the driver there to pull the emergency brake upon seeing the train in front.Coming back to the money point, as I posted earlier in the thread I would never even consider the job even with the money available. Sitting underground in a confined space for 8(?) hours a day doing a mindless job, yet still required to be alert at all times on the off chance something goes wrong? Nah, not for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenportram Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 if this was the only issue, why haven't tfl done it? It seems a bit of a no brainier to simply put a clause in saying 'no worker is permitted to work more than x night shifts in a given period of time.' I can't see how that would cost tfl anything. So there must be more to it than that. And Daveo sites HGV drivers. I'll always side with the HGV drivers and bus drivers. You can't tell me their job is is not more technically difficult and potentially more dangerous than a tube driver's. They're governed by drivers hours, which allows them to drive up to 9 hours a day, with mandatory breaks, meaning it's considered safe and legal to work for up to 12 hours. The tube drivers have it ridiculously easy compared to this, but truck drivers don't moan about it. (Except for me, I'm moaning now). TfL haven't done it because they want to be able to roster people for as many as they want so they can employ less drivers. Having been involved in creating rosters the more limitations there are generally more staff are needed. hose examples don't go against my argument about the need for destruction on shift patterns, they have legal requirements for hours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenportram Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 you don't use the DLR then? And Singapore has one of the best systems I've ever seen. Land with Apple cars and Google cars being worked on now, it'll soon be fully automated driving. If a computer can handle that, it can easily handle a train. A computer programme may not be bug free, but humans definitely aren't bug free. A computer might make 1 mistake in every 10,000 attempts, a human will make far more. And if it's a safety thing, can't run trains at night because drivers might be tired, then the only real option is full automation. is the DLR humanless or does it have someone monitoring. Oh and my safety point isn't that nights make people tired. Its that being exposed to too many in a row increases fatigue and risk of errors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenportram Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 Copied again from the original BBC article, just to clear up how automatic tube trains are & will be.More modern trains, making up the majority of stock, drive and stop themselves, relying on automatic signalling. On these, it's the driver's job to decide when to close the doors and leave stations. He or she can also override the system in case of an emergency, such as a customer falling on the track. All trains are set to move to the modern system by 2020, TfL says. so they still need drivers to monitor and overide the system if needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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