davenportram Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 The latest dispute isn't about pay, the pay offer was a bribe to get the unions to accept night working with no restrictions on how many night shifts someone may have to work. currently they don't do night shifts, and the effects of night shifts on workers in terms of fatigue is critical in safety related jobs. They need to have restrictions on how many nights a driver can be rostered for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfie Posted July 9, 2015 Author Share Posted July 9, 2015 the chaos in London now shows how much underground staff contribute to society. No, it just demonstrates their bargaining power as per my other post. Holding a city to ransom is a funny way of contributing to society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfie Posted July 9, 2015 Author Share Posted July 9, 2015 It's pretty easy to make any job sound simple when you're not doing it. The simple point is that they have a current standing agreement, and they wish to change it. Your personal feelings on how hard the job is doesn't come into it. If they want drivers to suddenly start doing overnight shifts, then there is going to be the debate about compensating them properly for this change. The bosses want change and are offering to compensate you, most people have two options:A. Accept the money and the changeB. Look for another job with terms you preferUnfortunately option C is too tempting C. Demand more and cause massive disruption and extra costs to 4million commuters - then go on holiday for 2 months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 The bosses want change and are offering to compensate you, most people have two options:A. Accept the money and the changeB. Look for another job with terms you preferUnfortunately option C is too tempting C. Demand more and cause massive disruption and extra costs to 4million commuters - then go on holiday for 2 months. Actually, it's a bit more complicated than that. "The bosses" have to follow certain regulations set by the government, and equally need to make sure that they keep their workers onside. In a situation like this the bosses have two options:A. Present acceptable terms for the workersB. Rehire their entire workforce at the terms deemed unacceptable by their former workersUnfortunately, option C is far too tempting:C. Have a massive whinge in the media when workers actually expect fair compensation for a significant change to working conditions, and force the workers to such actions, causing massive disruption and costing 4 million commuters, just so they could save a few quid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mafiabob Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 Two sides to every story Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mafiabob Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 But don't let that stop the union bashing eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyinLiverpool Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 No, it just demonstrates their bargaining power as per my other post. Holding a city to ransom is a funny way of contributing to society.Demonstrating how vital they are to the functioning of our capital city is not holding the city to ransom. It's inviting people to see what the city is like without its underground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TigerTedd Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 The latest dispute isn't about pay, the pay offer was a bribe to get the unions to accept night working with no restrictions on how many night shifts someone may have to work. currently they don't do night shifts, and the effects of night shifts on workers in terms of fatigue is critical in safety related jobs. They need to have restrictions on how many nights a driver can be rostered for.how many nights are they actually being asked to work though? 2 nights a week on 4 lines with another 130-odd drivers to take up the slack. That must be no more than one or two Friday or Saturday nights a month. They are hardly being asked to work back to back nights for weeks on end. Also, why should their driving regulations be any different than, for example, HGV drivers' hours (which I am), from a safety perspective. It would be especially interesting to see how a tube driver compares with a bus driver in terms of pay and benefits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McRamFan Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 If you doubled it I wouldn't do the job, not with the top choice of suicide in London is death by Tube. Pay them more, because one suicide would probably end your career and make it difficut to do other work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TigerTedd Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 Demonstrating how vital they are to the functioning of our capital city is not holding the city to ransom. It's inviting people to see what the city is like without its underground.so here's an interesting point. I work in marketing. The company I work for could probably tick along fine for quite some time if i refused to work (although it would probably be noticed several months down the line, when I've started work again, and will be the one having to clean up my own mess). The public would probably notice no difference at all. I have the right to strike, but it wouldn't be very effective, as I wouldn't be causing much disruption.strike is only a useful weapon for those that can cause wide scale disruption with it, because of the nature of their job. It doesn't necessarily mean their job takes any more skill or demands any more respect than mine. So it seems a bit immoral or unethical to use that power in such a way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TigerTedd Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 The London Underground song says it best: http://youtu.be/0dftDPLAylU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SillyBilly Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 Good for them. I also tend to think bashing people who are campaigning for better wages and/or conditions is counter-productive (within reason). If you don't like your own crap job and crap wage it ain't going to improve your life by holding another to the same level, its not a race to the bottom. I see jealously a lot of the time. I believe every now and then a union, or any other form of collective bargaining, strategically reminding employers that there is a limit to their demands is actually rather helpful to the other 99% in the long run. If we were all door mats none of us would have made out of the workhouse. Everything in moderation of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfie Posted July 9, 2015 Author Share Posted July 9, 2015 Demonstrating how vital they are to the functioning of our capital city is not holding the city to ransom. It's inviting people to see what the city is like without its underground.No. Inviting people to see what the city is like without its underground would involve giving the people a choice. What they did was cause massive disruption with no regard for the effect on 4 million people because they feel hard done by. It's greed and selfishness dressed up as social justice and struggle of the downtrodden masses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenportram Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 how many nights are they actually being asked to work though? 2 nights a week on 4 lines with another 130-odd drivers to take up the slack. That must be no more than one or two Friday or Saturday nights a month. They are hardly being asked to work back to back nights for weeks on end. Also, why should their driving regulations be any different than, for example, HGV drivers' hours (which I am), from a safety perspective. It would be especially interesting to see how a tube driver compares with a bus driver in terms of pay and benefits. Its not about how many they are being asked at the moment, if they sign up to a dealwith no restrictions then its what will be expected of themin the future. Its the emdia putting the pay into the dispute, The dispute isnt about pay its about unreasonable working terms and conditions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gypsy Ram Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 Born and raised in London.I know for a fact people in the underground are like the mafia giving jobs to their mates and family to do feck all and earn a decent salary that goes up yearly... It's the gravy train. Easy job, easy hours, lots of holiday and a very good wage for doing feck all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenportram Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 so here's an interesting point. I work in marketing. The company I work for could probably tick along fine for quite some time if i refused to work (although it would probably be noticed several months down the line, when I've started work again, and will be the one having to clean up my own mess). The public would probably notice no difference at all. I have the right to strike, but it wouldn't be very effective, as I wouldn't be causing much disruption.strike is only a useful weapon for those that can cause wide scale disruption with it, because of the nature of their job. It doesn't necessarily mean their job takes any more skill or demands any more respect than mine. So it seems a bit immoral or unethical to use that power in such a way. Strikes havent got to cause widespread disruption to be effective. If you strike and it costs your employer loads of money in lost business then theyweill start to listen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TigerTedd Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 Strikes havent got to cause widespread disruption to be effective. If you strike and it costs your employer loads of money in lost business then theyweill start to listenno, the only power I have is knowing my worth. If my boss fails to see that, I'll go find someone else who does. And my boss knows it.It seems the problem a tube driver has is that they realise they are not worth half of what they are getting. They can't simply up sticks and find something new because they will never find anything as cushy. They don't want to up sticks and find something new. So the only power they have, to get more and more and more, is to strike.which is not to say tfl are innocent. They know they're paying too much for their staff, so they try to eke out as much blood as they can from them, paying little respect. This does not appear to be a relationship of mutual respect, which a good employee/employee relationship should be. It's just a big game of cat and mouse, which the drivers are winning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uttoxram75 Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 No. Inviting people to see what the city is like without its underground would involve giving the people a choice. What they did was cause massive disruption with no regard for the effect on 4 million people because they feel hard done by. It's greed and selfishness dressed up as social justice and struggle of the downtrodden masses. Oh my life.....really surprised me there Wolfie......capitalism is ok as long as too many don't want a part of it eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uttoxram75 Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 Born and raised in London.I know for a fact people in the underground are like the mafia giving jobs to their mates and family to do feck all and earn a decent salary that goes up yearly... It's the gravy train. Easy job, easy hours, lots of holiday and a very good wage for doing feck all. So why should they give it up?The tax evaders don't give their free ride up. The tax avoiders don't suddenly feel guilty. The people who cheat the Libor rates and break the system knowing the taxpayer will bail them out fight like mad to keep their wealth.When its working people prepared to fight to maintain their wages and working conditions it suddenly becomes a moral issue and holding the country to ransom??????????????And we wonder why this country is up **** creek!Train drivers did not bankrupt this country. Spivs and conmen in the financial markets did it. Hell, they're running the fcking country now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TigerTedd Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 So why should they give it up?The tax evaders don't give their free ride up. The tax avoiders don't suddenly feel guilty. The people who cheat the Libor rates and break the system knowing the taxpayer will bail them out fight like mad to keep their wealth.When its working people prepared to fight to maintain their wages and working conditions it suddenly becomes a moral issue and holding the country to ransom??????????????And we wonder why this country is up **** creek!Train drivers did not bankrupt this country. Spivs and conmen in the financial markets did it. Hell, they're running the fcking country now!Two wrongs don't make a right. The countries up **** creek because everyone is out to screw the country. Whether their capitalists or socialists, it doesn't seem to make a difference. Greed is good, apparently.However, in this particular case, I don't really give a ****. Any increase in pay is paid for by the Londoners that use the service. And that's their own daft fault for living in London. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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