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£49,673 and 43 days leave a year for (not) driving a train...


Wolfie

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Two wrongs don't make a right. 

The countries up **** creek because everyone is out to screw the country. Whether their capitalists or socialists, it doesn't seem to make a difference. Greed is good, apparently.

However, in this particular case, I don't really give a ****. Any increase in pay is paid for by the Londoners that use the service. And that's their own daft fault for living in London. 

You can thank Thatchler's philosophy for that.

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Oh my life.....really surprised me there Wolfie......capitalism is ok as long as too many don't want a part of it eh? :whistle:

The "Invite" thing got me riled. 

Why should it be a surprise, though?. I'm slightly right of centre but I'm also concerned with fairness for all and am a generous and considerate person. I just see the unfairness of a group of individuals who hold millions of people to ransom in order to become even more overpaid than they already are - just because they can get away with it.

I agree with you completely on the bankers, tax evaders and avoiders. Whenever possible I buy from independent and local businesses because I'm fed up with the big companies not paying their fair share of tax.

I'd like to have a proper debate over a pint some time. My round. I'm sure there is much I can teach you ;):ph34r: 

 

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What disappoints me is that you're still seeing this as "the workers bringing misery to millions" - rather than looking at how TfL have caused this strike.

The ability of the general public to blame each other rather than hold the rich and powerful to account never ceases to amaze me. That's why the country is in a mess. Why do so many people have this masochistic streak that thinks we deserve austerity and we deserve to be exploited by bosses and we deserve to be screwed by politicians, so let's just fight amongst ourselves?

 

If you've not seen it, this letter is interesting as it seems to suggest that the Night Tube is unaffordable but Stupid Boris announced it anyway without thinking it through, so that's the real reason TfL have caused the strike - to prove a point.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/tube-strike-live-the-underground-drivers-letter-that-may-change-your-mind-on-todays-walk-out-10378637.html

 

 

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For me, I suppose this boils down to who you believe is guilty of abusing their power.

1. The TFL management & employers, who want to enforce change to T&C's without proper negotiation and consultation as per the letter.

or

2. The Tube drivers, who, because of reasons explained previously, have the power to be able to continually demand hugely more generous employment packages than teachers, policemen, nurses & firemen etc.

The left will always say option 1 and the right will say option 2.

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Huge credit for TfL wanting to increase the level of service to their customers by running night trains on those lines. It is crazy that they finish at 12:30 to 1:00am. No problem with the drivers pay, the responsibility on them for 100's of passengers is high. The fact is though, that thanks to Maggie's efforts in standing up to the unions during her period in control, the unions cannot win any more. Credit to Boris as well, the underground service is improving all the time. 

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For me, I suppose this boils down to who you believe is guilty of abusing their power.

1. The TFL management & employers, who want to enforce change to T&C's without proper negotiation and consultation as per the letter.

or

2. The Tube drivers, who, because of reasons explained previously, have the power to be able to continually demand hugely more generous employment packages than teachers, policemen, nurses & firemen etc.

The left will always say option 1 and the right will say option 2.

Hmm - I don't think it's entirely that clear cut, because 2 wouldn't have happened if 1 hadn't happened first, so it's not just a case of left & right. It's also a case of anyone capable of logical thought and root cause analysis would say option 1 too.

And it's TfL who have broken employment law by abusing the consultation rules. The Underground staff (note it's not just the Tube drivers who went on strike - it's ALL of them) actually followed the stringent rules that the Tories implemented to try and restrict strike action. ASLEF members voted 98% in favour of a strike, on a turnout of 81% - that's impressive, and gives you an idea of how strongly the employees felt about it.

It's so incredibly difficult to call a legal strike these days, thanks to Thatcherite policies that have weakened the unions, so actually anyone on the right of the political spectrum should at least have the dignity to admit that TfL are the ones in the wrong and that the Underground Staff have done everything by the book.

 

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Hmm - I don't think it's entirely that clear cut, because 2 wouldn't have happened if 1 hadn't happened first, so it's not just a case of left & right. It's also a case of anyone capable of logical thought and root cause analysis would say option 1 too.

No need to get personal and a proper root cause analysis would probably conclude that it's like more chicken & egg, especially over the years. Would TfL have been so unreasonable this time if the drivers hadn't had them over a barrel in the past? etc etc. These are deep seated hostilities between 2 blinkered organisations and things will always be a lot more complicated than just the current situation.

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No need to get personal

Sorry - didn't mean to make it to sound aimed at you. What you've just said is actually very valid, and proves the point that we shouldn't just blindly blame a party based on left/right politics. We all need to think a bit more deeply (me included)

 

 

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Annoying for Londoners but good on them, they know in 10 years they'll be replaced by robots so may aswell squeeze what they can out of TFL.

They're already well on the way to achieving that. At the moment though, you still need trained workers taking care of the "robots". 

For me, I suppose this boils down to who you believe is guilty of abusing their power.

1. The TFL management & employers, who want to enforce change to T&C's without proper negotiation and consultation as per the letter.

or

2. The Tube drivers, who, because of reasons explained previously, have the power to be able to continually demand hugely more generous employment packages than teachers, policemen, nurses & firemen etc.

The left will always say option 1 and the right will say option 2.

I've always hated this whole "left v right" nonsense. People just shape it to mean what they want on the day, but ultimately politics is more subtle, more nuanced than such a ridiculously simply description can describe. But of course it's then general fallback for people. 

In any case, it's never as simple as one side is right or wrong. The point is that there is a disagreement and the people of London got caught in the crossfire. To blame one side or the other outright isn't fair or either. The simple point is though that the management decided the best course of action was to strong arm their workers, and they fought back. Whether you feel either side was ethical or not, that is what happened, and surely you can relate at some level for people wanting just compensation for a change to working conditions. If nothing else, you shouldn't judge others for wanting to negotiate on their position, and responding to strong arm tactics with strong arm tactics of their own. 

Ultimately though, it's not a simple situation, but surely people should be able to understand why such difficulties happen more than just "greed". 

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don't forget the tube drivers didn't ask for the latest pay offer either. Their dispute is about rosters that do not limit the number of night shifts they can do.

 

Tfl put a pay rise on the table as a bribe to get then to accept the changes. They knew the press would puck up on the pay offer and dress the strike up as a pay dispute. TfL were very canny in what they did, especially as they gave the unions just a 2hour time limit to accept (which no unions should do as it gives no time to consult members)

 

this strike has nothing to do with tube workers seeking to hold people to ransom for more pay

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You don't need a Union for this one I've got it sorted.

What you do is put a letter out to all Underground staff, who is open to working more nights for a pay increase fill out the form with how many extra nights you are willing to do and pop it in the box at your station.

Right, now you have the numbers of those who are willing to work nights, if it's short of what is needed to run the night service advertise for new night staff only to cover the short fall.

This way existing workers have the chance of the extra pay rise and creates new jobs for those that are looking and available for night work. If you can't fill the vacancies, suspend the launch date and look at a reduced service to start with.

Sorted and it took me just 5 minutes to figure that one out.

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You don't need a Union for this one I've got it sorted.

What you do is put a letter out to all Underground staff, who is open to working more nights for a pay increase fill out the form with how many extra nights you are willing to do and pop it in the box at your station.

Right, now you have the numbers of those who are willing to work nights, if it's short of what is needed to run the night service advertise for new night staff only to cover the short fall.

This way existing workers have the chance of the extra pay rise and creates new jobs for those that are looking and available for night work. If you can't fill the vacancies, suspend the launch date and look at a reduced service to start with.

Sorted and it took me just 5 minutes to figure that one out.

but that totally ignores the actual dispute. It isn't about pay vs number of nights. Its about the rosters having no limit to the number of nughtshifts.. Nights create fatigue, fatigue creates misjudgements, misjudgements create accidents. Any roster that doesn't take into account or provide for a maximum number of night shifts in a given period is unsafe.

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but that totally ignores the actual dispute. It isn't about pay vs number of nights. Its about the rosters having no limit to the number of nughtshifts.. Nights create fatigue, fatigue creates misjudgements, misjudgements create accidents. Any roster that doesn't take into account or provide for a maximum number of night shifts in a given period is unsafe.

Give over, unsafe. Factory's up here have workers on night shifts operating heavy machinery for weeks on end. What about HGV drivers? You adjust your sleep schedule to the hours you work, fatigue can be just as likely for day shift workers if they don't sleep enough.

Like I said, contact all workers, those that want night shifts sign up for it, state how many night shifts they would be willing to work and give them a pay rise. It's not forcing anyone to work hours they don't want to and there would be lots of people out there looking to cover the night shift vacancies left over.

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hmmm......do I believe anecdotal or empirical reasearch? Having worked in safety critical industries doing night shifts and read the research on the issue it is proven that night workers suffer fatigue more than day workers. The natural rhythm of the body dictates that. No amount of alterations to sleep patterns negates the impact of too many night shifts.

 

there are links to diabetes, cancers and other diseases.

 

 

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Types of work that carry a higher risk and some examples of working conditions that may increase the risk include:

Agriculture, forestry and fishing – including too much sun exposure, or chemicals like pesticides.
Construction and painting – including asbestos, too much sun exposure, silica, diesel engine exhaust, coal products, paint and solvents, or wood dust.
Manufacturing and mining industries – including exposure to fossil fuels and their by-products (such as mineral oils, coal products, benzene, diesel engine exhaust), asbestos, silica, solvents, radon, or too much sun exposure.
Service industries – some types of jobs in this industry that could lead to a higher risk include: roles with outdoor  or shift work , household or vehicle repair technicians, or transport (drivers or flight personnel). The types of risks in this industry include too much sun exposure, second-hand smoke , shift work, diesel engine exhaust, or radon.

Some studies have raised concerns that working in shifts or being exposed to light at night could increase the risk of cancer, particularly breast cancer. Scientists are trying to confirm if this link is real, and for now, the evidence is not completely certain.

In 2007, the International Agency for Research into Cancer (IARC)(link is external) concluded that working night-shifts probably increases the risk of cancer. This means that there is some evidence that shift-working could affect the risk of cancer, but that more research is needed to say for sure.

http://www.cancerresearchuk.org/about-cancer/causes-of-cancer/cancer-risks-in-the-workplace

 

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