BaaLocks

No apologies necessary buddy. I read your post as an explanation rather than a justification but, regarding point two, I struggling to see how a full scale invasion can be explained by the position in those two areas.

I won't 100% refute your story on the skier, though I can't find any record on Google of a ski jumping event even taking place since the start of the conflict (yes, invasion), never mind any interviews of competitors. Fact checking things like this at this time before you post is really important, for all sides.
But I can tell you, 100%, that Russian people are fully aware of what is going on at every level. A five minute cursory glance at social media will tell you that and I can confirm it because I was talking to some of them yesterday. 
As for the rest of the post, people living in huts, no wi-fi etc. At best misinformed.
As for the point on Russian history books being fairytales - does that include the one about the 35m people who died (roll that number around in your head a little before you reply) helping defeat the Nazis. The country is in terminal decline based on that effort (if you have three children in Russia now you get your mortgage paid off - more despotic actions from the tyrant leader - such is the diminishing birthrate caused by the desolation of the, largely, male population then).
I don't debate that Russian media is state controlled but your frame of reference, somehow suggesting their history is wrong because it is different from British history, is a good example of how and why this situation has been utterly mishandled by the West, not just in the last few weeks but in the last 50 years.

On 3rd Feb 2022 the United Nations voted Moscow the best city in the world to live in in terms of 'quality of life' and 'infrastructure development' and fourth overall.
The report defines quality of life as “how an individual’s life or society’s condition is in comparison to another person or society, i.e. how good (or bad) someone’s life is compared to other individuals’ lives. Therefore, this is the measurement of a city’s average achievements for ensuring general well-being and satisfaction of its citizens.”
Infrastructure development is defined as “the set of basic physical systems, organizational structures, facilities, and installations needed for the functioning of a society, or economy. The prosperity of a city largely depends on the development of infrastructure, including transportation, communication, or provision of [basic] services, among others.”
If that feels to you like a despotic state then I'd suggest we all live in one. Indeed, as for your last sentence I say, without any irony, that I could list actions of the current UK government that would easily fall into that category.

I won't 100% refute your story on the skier, though I can't find any record on Google of a ski jumping event even taking place since the start of the conflict (yes, invasion), never mind any interviews of competitors. Fact checking things like this at this time before you post is really important, for all sides.
But I can tell you, 100%, that Russian people are fully aware of what is going on at every level. A five minute cursory glance at social media will tell you that and I can confirm it because I was talking to some of them yesterday. 
As for the rest of the post, people living in huts, no wi-fi etc. At best misinformed.
As for the point on Russian history books being fairytales - does that include the one about the 35m people who died (roll that number around in your head a little before you reply) helping defeat the Nazis. The country is in terminal decline based on that effort (if you have three children in Russia now you get your mortgage paid off - more despotic actions from the tyrant leader - such is the diminishing birthrate caused by the desolation of the, largely, male population then).
I don't debate that Russian media is state controlled but your frame of reference, somehow suggesting their history is wrong because it is different from British history, is a good example of how and why this situation has been utterly mishandled by the West, not just in the last few weeks but in the last 50 years.

On 3rd Feb 2022 the United Nations voted Moscow the best city in the world to live in in terms of 'quality of life' and 'infrastructure development' and fourth overall.
The report defines quality of life as “how an individual’s life or society’s condition is in comparison to another person or society, i.e. how good (or bad) someone’s life is compared to other individuals’ lives. Therefore, this is the measurement of a city’s average achievements for ensuring general well-being and satisfaction of its citizens.”
Infrastructure development is defined as “the set of basic physical systems, organizational structures, facilities, and installations needed for the functioning of a society, or economy. The prosperity of a city largely depends on the development of infrastructure, including transportation, communication, or provision of [basic] services, among others.”
If that feels to you like a despotic state then I'd suggest we all live in one. Indeed, as for your last sentence I say, without any irony, that I could list actions of the current UK government that would easily fall into that category.

I'm not going to get dragged into too much of this because I have family directly involved but I thought I would offer a few words that might help some understand the perspective from the other side.
- Putin is not a despot, he is not in this for personal gain or infamy. He rationally believes that Ukraine was ripped away from Russia at the break up of the Soviet Union. Kiev is the historic founding of the Russian people, Russians view Ukraine as their cousins in much the same way that Scots and Irish do - they are Slavs by 'tribe' in the same way that Scots are Celts. BTW - I do recognize that Ukraine is a divided country itself and many Catholic Ukrainians (in the West of the country) would not share this view. Ukraine has been independent since 1991 but this is not a country with thousands of years of independence, for most of it's history it has been a part of Russia, Austro-Hungary or Poland. Again, I repeat, this does not entitle invasion but Putin is merely of the belief he needs to reset things to what they were.
- Consequently, Putin is repeatedly saying that what he is doing is for Mother Russia. I don't say I agree with it, but it's not as simple as the 'evil regime' some in the West are trying to put on him. Back in Russia he is very popular and has done (without doubt) a huge amount to lift up the standard of living of nearly all Russians. Moscow, and many other cities, are great places to live and the support networks that most Russians enjoy put ours to shame (schools, local councils, healthcare etc).
- This goes back to the breakup of the Berlin Wall, at the very latest. At that time the Soviet Union was dissolved, and the Russians were largely humilated in the years after with the ways they were forced to (for example) decommission nuclear weapons unilaterally in return for aid. And, as Putin says, 'even this was not enough for the West' as they then funded seperatists in Chechnya, Georgia and other areas. The West, largely the US, has interfered in Russian domestic matters consistently while at the very same time castigating Russia for doing the same (e.g. Syria).
- Without doubt, and again not trying to excuse anyone, Russians are endemically paranoid - and have been way before the WWII (or the Great Patriotic War as they call it) and are bathed in the belief that the actions of their fathers (and let's not forget without their laying down 35 million lives it is pretty clear the Second World War would not have ended when it did - at least) should not go to waste. Churchill famously described Russia as a riddle inside a mystery inside an enigma (or something maybe not in that order) and the West has repeatedly failed to see this over the past thirty years, consitently failed to take the opportunity to calm the situation and understand it from the other side.
- The West has systemically tried to undermine Russia since the Berlin Wall dissolved. Of course, in later years, Russia has reacted to this (Salisbury poisionings, election interfering etc) with clear hostility but don't forget, it's not too long since British spies were caught laying cameras outside influential locations in Moscow.
- There is a unique moment here for Putin to act. America is weak, the world is still reeling from the pandemic, Germany is in political transition, the US and the UK have (let's keep it polite) leaders that will not be remembered as the greatest to serve their country. And alongside this, Russia has been told to step back on watch the US try to control the Middle East (Iraq, Yemen, Syria, Afghanistan) among other activities. If you are interested in American foreign policy look up a concept called 'manifest destiny' - Russians reject the American belief that they have the right to go imposing their views on other people in their countries - even President Xi of China said the same thing the other day. Now when Russia says they want to 'integrate' Ukraine back under their control (again, let's not forget that Ukraine has declared intent to join NATO, to have NATO military right up against Russian borders - for a country that remembers being invaded in 1941, like it or not, this is just not acceptable so Russia sees this as the best way to prevent that) there was no reasonable way to look at that (note: in 2014 the referendum in Donbass and Lugansk clearly voted to be part of Russia. Yes, you can question the result but it was a bit more than 52%, if I may). BTW - there are already seven states reintegrating back into a sort of CIS style trading block, including some of the 'stans, Belarus and Armenia. This is not just about reinventing the Soviet Union.
So, what is happening is horrific, it's undefendable as an action but it is also possible to take a moment to understand why it was done and what the rational is behind it.
Final point - it would help a LOT if someone could get Liz Truss to read this post as her references and statements are so incorrect in their frames of history that they are insulting and completely unhelpful. That, above all, is my biggest fear - not Putin (who let's not forget has been in power since before Boris even got into politics in any form) but that the, frankly, amateurs on this side of the fence simply don't know what they are dealiing with. We desperately need a Merkel, even a Thatcher, who can handle this in the way that is needed, not some of the faux Churchillian bombast seen from too many (not just UK) leaders.
Hope that helps, as I say I'm not doing debate on it - if you disagree please feel free to do so but, with all respect, I have friends and family to be looking out for at this time so please excuse me if this doesn't answer all the points.
BTW - for anyone reading this who is Ukranian, my heart goes out to what your country is being put through. My prayers are that this can be resolved quickly and without more bloodshed.
But, and be sure, this is the single biggest threat to all our lives since at least WWII (may even including, given we didn't have nuclear bombs then). This only takes one person to misunderstand one signal, one command, one movement and we are all toast. Very, very worrying.

I'm not going to get dragged into too much of this because I have family directly involved but I thought I would offer a few words that might help some understand the perspective from the other side.
- Putin is not a despot, he is not in this for personal gain or infamy. He rationally believes that Ukraine was ripped away from Russia at the break up of the Soviet Union. Kiev is the historic founding of the Russian people, Russians view Ukraine as their cousins in much the same way that Scots and Irish do - they are Slavs by 'tribe' in the same way that Scots are Celts. BTW - I do recognize that Ukraine is a divided country itself and many Catholic Ukrainians (in the West of the country) would not share this view. Ukraine has been independent since 1991 but this is not a country with thousands of years of independence, for most of it's history it has been a part of Russia, Austro-Hungary or Poland. Again, I repeat, this does not entitle invasion but Putin is merely of the belief he needs to reset things to what they were.
- Consequently, Putin is repeatedly saying that what he is doing is for Mother Russia. I don't say I agree with it, but it's not as simple as the 'evil regime' some in the West are trying to put on him. Back in Russia he is very popular and has done (without doubt) a huge amount to lift up the standard of living of nearly all Russians. Moscow, and many other cities, are great places to live and the support networks that most Russians enjoy put ours to shame (schools, local councils, healthcare etc).
- This goes back to the breakup of the Berlin Wall, at the very latest. At that time the Soviet Union was dissolved, and the Russians were largely humilated in the years after with the ways they were forced to (for example) decommission nuclear weapons unilaterally in return for aid. And, as Putin says, 'even this was not enough for the West' as they then funded seperatists in Chechnya, Georgia and other areas. The West, largely the US, has interfered in Russian domestic matters consistently while at the very same time castigating Russia for doing the same (e.g. Syria).
- Without doubt, and again not trying to excuse anyone, Russians are endemically paranoid - and have been way before the WWII (or the Great Patriotic War as they call it) and are bathed in the belief that the actions of their fathers (and let's not forget without their laying down 35 million lives it is pretty clear the Second World War would not have ended when it did - at least) should not go to waste. Churchill famously described Russia as a riddle inside a mystery inside an enigma (or something maybe not in that order) and the West has repeatedly failed to see this over the past thirty years, consitently failed to take the opportunity to calm the situation and understand it from the other side.
- The West has systemically tried to undermine Russia since the Berlin Wall dissolved. Of course, in later years, Russia has reacted to this (Salisbury poisionings, election interfering etc) with clear hostility but don't forget, it's not too long since British spies were caught laying cameras outside influential locations in Moscow.
- There is a unique moment here for Putin to act. America is weak, the world is still reeling from the pandemic, Germany is in political transition, the US and the UK have (let's keep it polite) leaders that will not be remembered as the greatest to serve their country. And alongside this, Russia has been told to step back on watch the US try to control the Middle East (Iraq, Yemen, Syria, Afghanistan) among other activities. If you are interested in American foreign policy look up a concept called 'manifest destiny' - Russians reject the American belief that they have the right to go imposing their views on other people in their countries - even President Xi of China said the same thing the other day. Now when Russia says they want to 'integrate' Ukraine back under their control (again, let's not forget that Ukraine has declared intent to join NATO, to have NATO military right up against Russian borders - for a country that remembers being invaded in 1941, like it or not, this is just not acceptable so Russia sees this as the best way to prevent that) there was no reasonable way to look at that (note: in 2014 the referendum in Donbass and Lugansk clearly voted to be part of Russia. Yes, you can question the result but it was a bit more than 52%, if I may). BTW - there are already seven states reintegrating back into a sort of CIS style trading block, including some of the 'stans, Belarus and Armenia. This is not just about reinventing the Soviet Union.
So, what is happening is horrific, it's undefendable as an action but it is also possible to take a moment to understand why it was done and what the rational is behind it.
Final point - it would help a LOT if someone could get Liz Truss to read this post as her references and statements are so incorrect in their frames of history that they are insulting and completely unhelpful. That, above all, is my biggest fear - not Putin (who let's not forget has been in power since before Boris even got into politics in any form) but that the, frankly, amateurs on this side of the fence simply don't know what they are dealiing with. We desperately need a Merkel, even a Thatcher, who can handle this in the way that is needed, not some of the faux Churchillian bombast seen from too many (not just UK) leaders.
Hope that helps, as I say I'm not doing debate on it - if you disagree please feel free to do so but, with all respect, I have friends and family to be looking out for at this time so please excuse me if this doesn't answer all the points.
BTW - for anyone reading this who is Ukranian, my heart goes out to what your country is being put through. My prayers are that this can be resolved quickly and without more bloodshed.
But, and be sure, this is the single biggest threat to all our lives since at least WWII (may even including, given we didn't have nuclear bombs then). This only takes one person to misunderstand one signal, one command, one movement and we are all toast. Very, very worrying.

1: I was trying to make the point that many neighbours of Russia see benefit to be closely linked to them politically and economically. Ukraine were happy to do that when Yanukovich was in power, now they don't. I'm not suggesting Ukraine should, i do get they have been invaded and I repeat, again, that is terrible and not right.
2: I am not justifying the invasion of Ukraine, in any way. Apologies if that ever seems to be the case. It isn't.

I'm not going to get dragged into too much of this because I have family directly involved but I thought I would offer a few words that might help some understand the perspective from the other side.
- Putin is not a despot, he is not in this for personal gain or infamy. He rationally believes that Ukraine was ripped away from Russia at the break up of the Soviet Union. Kiev is the historic founding of the Russian people, Russians view Ukraine as their cousins in much the same way that Scots and Irish do - they are Slavs by 'tribe' in the same way that Scots are Celts. BTW - I do recognize that Ukraine is a divided country itself and many Catholic Ukrainians (in the West of the country) would not share this view. Ukraine has been independent since 1991 but this is not a country with thousands of years of independence, for most of it's history it has been a part of Russia, Austro-Hungary or Poland. Again, I repeat, this does not entitle invasion but Putin is merely of the belief he needs to reset things to what they were.
- Consequently, Putin is repeatedly saying that what he is doing is for Mother Russia. I don't say I agree with it, but it's not as simple as the 'evil regime' some in the West are trying to put on him. Back in Russia he is very popular and has done (without doubt) a huge amount to lift up the standard of living of nearly all Russians. Moscow, and many other cities, are great places to live and the support networks that most Russians enjoy put ours to shame (schools, local councils, healthcare etc).
- This goes back to the breakup of the Berlin Wall, at the very latest. At that time the Soviet Union was dissolved, and the Russians were largely humilated in the years after with the ways they were forced to (for example) decommission nuclear weapons unilaterally in return for aid. And, as Putin says, 'even this was not enough for the West' as they then funded seperatists in Chechnya, Georgia and other areas. The West, largely the US, has interfered in Russian domestic matters consistently while at the very same time castigating Russia for doing the same (e.g. Syria).
- Without doubt, and again not trying to excuse anyone, Russians are endemically paranoid - and have been way before the WWII (or the Great Patriotic War as they call it) and are bathed in the belief that the actions of their fathers (and let's not forget without their laying down 35 million lives it is pretty clear the Second World War would not have ended when it did - at least) should not go to waste. Churchill famously described Russia as a riddle inside a mystery inside an enigma (or something maybe not in that order) and the West has repeatedly failed to see this over the past thirty years, consitently failed to take the opportunity to calm the situation and understand it from the other side.
- The West has systemically tried to undermine Russia since the Berlin Wall dissolved. Of course, in later years, Russia has reacted to this (Salisbury poisionings, election interfering etc) with clear hostility but don't forget, it's not too long since British spies were caught laying cameras outside influential locations in Moscow.
- There is a unique moment here for Putin to act. America is weak, the world is still reeling from the pandemic, Germany is in political transition, the US and the UK have (let's keep it polite) leaders that will not be remembered as the greatest to serve their country. And alongside this, Russia has been told to step back on watch the US try to control the Middle East (Iraq, Yemen, Syria, Afghanistan) among other activities. If you are interested in American foreign policy look up a concept called 'manifest destiny' - Russians reject the American belief that they have the right to go imposing their views on other people in their countries - even President Xi of China said the same thing the other day. Now when Russia says they want to 'integrate' Ukraine back under their control (again, let's not forget that Ukraine has declared intent to join NATO, to have NATO military right up against Russian borders - for a country that remembers being invaded in 1941, like it or not, this is just not acceptable so Russia sees this as the best way to prevent that) there was no reasonable way to look at that (note: in 2014 the referendum in Donbass and Lugansk clearly voted to be part of Russia. Yes, you can question the result but it was a bit more than 52%, if I may). BTW - there are already seven states reintegrating back into a sort of CIS style trading block, including some of the 'stans, Belarus and Armenia. This is not just about reinventing the Soviet Union.
So, what is happening is horrific, it's undefendable as an action but it is also possible to take a moment to understand why it was done and what the rational is behind it.
Final point - it would help a LOT if someone could get Liz Truss to read this post as her references and statements are so incorrect in their frames of history that they are insulting and completely unhelpful. That, above all, is my biggest fear - not Putin (who let's not forget has been in power since before Boris even got into politics in any form) but that the, frankly, amateurs on this side of the fence simply don't know what they are dealiing with. We desperately need a Merkel, even a Thatcher, who can handle this in the way that is needed, not some of the faux Churchillian bombast seen from too many (not just UK) leaders.
Hope that helps, as I say I'm not doing debate on it - if you disagree please feel free to do so but, with all respect, I have friends and family to be looking out for at this time so please excuse me if this doesn't answer all the points.
BTW - for anyone reading this who is Ukranian, my heart goes out to what your country is being put through. My prayers are that this can be resolved quickly and without more bloodshed.
But, and be sure, this is the single biggest threat to all our lives since at least WWII (may even including, given we didn't have nuclear bombs then). This only takes one person to misunderstand one signal, one command, one movement and we are all toast. Very, very worrying.

My definition of despot involves someone solely concerned with personal benefit and betterment. Putin is not doing this to better himself, or to benefit financially or otherwise in my opinion. He is doing this because he repeatedly states that Russia needs to redress what it sees as years of influence in their internal and regional affairs. For example, and it's not about whether it is true but on what he believes, he states he has evidence that the Orange Revolution was funded and supported by the US.
As for being a billionaire out of this, he certainly has not benefitted from the break up of Russian state industries anywhere near the level of the likes of Khodorkovsky, Deripaska, Abramovich and others.
So, compared to the likes of Saddam Hussein, Idi Amin, Mugabe etc I personally would not describe as a despot even though it is in the interest of western media positioning to make him out as such. Most people in Russia have a significantly improved standard of living than they did when he came to power - that is not what I see as the normal impact a despot has.

I have huge respect for your intimate knowledge and historical perspective. I can’t and wouldn’t want to gain say your contentions. I’d only throw in to the mix that “Ukrainians”  expressed a wish to join NATO. In the same breath we could say the Scots via the SNP wanted to remain in the EU. Hitler also felt Austria and the Sudetenland were part of greater Germany.
Perspective and the actions taken from those different perspectives by different orders tell me a lot. 
 

I'm not going to get dragged into too much of this because I have family directly involved but I thought I would offer a few words that might help some understand the perspective from the other side.
- Putin is not a despot, he is not in this for personal gain or infamy. He rationally believes that Ukraine was ripped away from Russia at the break up of the Soviet Union. Kiev is the historic founding of the Russian people, Russians view Ukraine as their cousins in much the same way that Scots and Irish do - they are Slavs by 'tribe' in the same way that Scots are Celts. BTW - I do recognize that Ukraine is a divided country itself and many Catholic Ukrainians (in the West of the country) would not share this view. Ukraine has been independent since 1991 but this is not a country with thousands of years of independence, for most of it's history it has been a part of Russia, Austro-Hungary or Poland. Again, I repeat, this does not entitle invasion but Putin is merely of the belief he needs to reset things to what they were.
- Consequently, Putin is repeatedly saying that what he is doing is for Mother Russia. I don't say I agree with it, but it's not as simple as the 'evil regime' some in the West are trying to put on him. Back in Russia he is very popular and has done (without doubt) a huge amount to lift up the standard of living of nearly all Russians. Moscow, and many other cities, are great places to live and the support networks that most Russians enjoy put ours to shame (schools, local councils, healthcare etc).
- This goes back to the breakup of the Berlin Wall, at the very latest. At that time the Soviet Union was dissolved, and the Russians were largely humilated in the years after with the ways they were forced to (for example) decommission nuclear weapons unilaterally in return for aid. And, as Putin says, 'even this was not enough for the West' as they then funded seperatists in Chechnya, Georgia and other areas. The West, largely the US, has interfered in Russian domestic matters consistently while at the very same time castigating Russia for doing the same (e.g. Syria).
- Without doubt, and again not trying to excuse anyone, Russians are endemically paranoid - and have been way before the WWII (or the Great Patriotic War as they call it) and are bathed in the belief that the actions of their fathers (and let's not forget without their laying down 35 million lives it is pretty clear the Second World War would not have ended when it did - at least) should not go to waste. Churchill famously described Russia as a riddle inside a mystery inside an enigma (or something maybe not in that order) and the West has repeatedly failed to see this over the past thirty years, consitently failed to take the opportunity to calm the situation and understand it from the other side.
- The West has systemically tried to undermine Russia since the Berlin Wall dissolved. Of course, in later years, Russia has reacted to this (Salisbury poisionings, election interfering etc) with clear hostility but don't forget, it's not too long since British spies were caught laying cameras outside influential locations in Moscow.
- There is a unique moment here for Putin to act. America is weak, the world is still reeling from the pandemic, Germany is in political transition, the US and the UK have (let's keep it polite) leaders that will not be remembered as the greatest to serve their country. And alongside this, Russia has been told to step back on watch the US try to control the Middle East (Iraq, Yemen, Syria, Afghanistan) among other activities. If you are interested in American foreign policy look up a concept called 'manifest destiny' - Russians reject the American belief that they have the right to go imposing their views on other people in their countries - even President Xi of China said the same thing the other day. Now when Russia says they want to 'integrate' Ukraine back under their control (again, let's not forget that Ukraine has declared intent to join NATO, to have NATO military right up against Russian borders - for a country that remembers being invaded in 1941, like it or not, this is just not acceptable so Russia sees this as the best way to prevent that) there was no reasonable way to look at that (note: in 2014 the referendum in Donbass and Lugansk clearly voted to be part of Russia. Yes, you can question the result but it was a bit more than 52%, if I may). BTW - there are already seven states reintegrating back into a sort of CIS style trading block, including some of the 'stans, Belarus and Armenia. This is not just about reinventing the Soviet Union.
So, what is happening is horrific, it's undefendable as an action but it is also possible to take a moment to understand why it was done and what the rational is behind it.
Final point - it would help a LOT if someone could get Liz Truss to read this post as her references and statements are so incorrect in their frames of history that they are insulting and completely unhelpful. That, above all, is my biggest fear - not Putin (who let's not forget has been in power since before Boris even got into politics in any form) but that the, frankly, amateurs on this side of the fence simply don't know what they are dealiing with. We desperately need a Merkel, even a Thatcher, who can handle this in the way that is needed, not some of the faux Churchillian bombast seen from too many (not just UK) leaders.
Hope that helps, as I say I'm not doing debate on it - if you disagree please feel free to do so but, with all respect, I have friends and family to be looking out for at this time so please excuse me if this doesn't answer all the points.
BTW - for anyone reading this who is Ukranian, my heart goes out to what your country is being put through. My prayers are that this can be resolved quickly and without more bloodshed.
But, and be sure, this is the single biggest threat to all our lives since at least WWII (may even including, given we didn't have nuclear bombs then). This only takes one person to misunderstand one signal, one command, one movement and we are all toast. Very, very worrying.

I'm not going to get dragged into too much of this because I have family directly involved but I thought I would offer a few words that might help some understand the perspective from the other side.
- Putin is not a despot, he is not in this for personal gain or infamy. He rationally believes that Ukraine was ripped away from Russia at the break up of the Soviet Union. Kiev is the historic founding of the Russian people, Russians view Ukraine as their cousins in much the same way that Scots and Irish do - they are Slavs by 'tribe' in the same way that Scots are Celts. BTW - I do recognize that Ukraine is a divided country itself and many Catholic Ukrainians (in the West of the country) would not share this view. Ukraine has been independent since 1991 but this is not a country with thousands of years of independence, for most of it's history it has been a part of Russia, Austro-Hungary or Poland. Again, I repeat, this does not entitle invasion but Putin is merely of the belief he needs to reset things to what they were.
- Consequently, Putin is repeatedly saying that what he is doing is for Mother Russia. I don't say I agree with it, but it's not as simple as the 'evil regime' some in the West are trying to put on him. Back in Russia he is very popular and has done (without doubt) a huge amount to lift up the standard of living of nearly all Russians. Moscow, and many other cities, are great places to live and the support networks that most Russians enjoy put ours to shame (schools, local councils, healthcare etc).
- This goes back to the breakup of the Berlin Wall, at the very latest. At that time the Soviet Union was dissolved, and the Russians were largely humilated in the years after with the ways they were forced to (for example) decommission nuclear weapons unilaterally in return for aid. And, as Putin says, 'even this was not enough for the West' as they then funded seperatists in Chechnya, Georgia and other areas. The West, largely the US, has interfered in Russian domestic matters consistently while at the very same time castigating Russia for doing the same (e.g. Syria).
- Without doubt, and again not trying to excuse anyone, Russians are endemically paranoid - and have been way before the WWII (or the Great Patriotic War as they call it) and are bathed in the belief that the actions of their fathers (and let's not forget without their laying down 35 million lives it is pretty clear the Second World War would not have ended when it did - at least) should not go to waste. Churchill famously described Russia as a riddle inside a mystery inside an enigma (or something maybe not in that order) and the West has repeatedly failed to see this over the past thirty years, consitently failed to take the opportunity to calm the situation and understand it from the other side.
- The West has systemically tried to undermine Russia since the Berlin Wall dissolved. Of course, in later years, Russia has reacted to this (Salisbury poisionings, election interfering etc) with clear hostility but don't forget, it's not too long since British spies were caught laying cameras outside influential locations in Moscow.
- There is a unique moment here for Putin to act. America is weak, the world is still reeling from the pandemic, Germany is in political transition, the US and the UK have (let's keep it polite) leaders that will not be remembered as the greatest to serve their country. And alongside this, Russia has been told to step back on watch the US try to control the Middle East (Iraq, Yemen, Syria, Afghanistan) among other activities. If you are interested in American foreign policy look up a concept called 'manifest destiny' - Russians reject the American belief that they have the right to go imposing their views on other people in their countries - even President Xi of China said the same thing the other day. Now when Russia says they want to 'integrate' Ukraine back under their control (again, let's not forget that Ukraine has declared intent to join NATO, to have NATO military right up against Russian borders - for a country that remembers being invaded in 1941, like it or not, this is just not acceptable so Russia sees this as the best way to prevent that) there was no reasonable way to look at that (note: in 2014 the referendum in Donbass and Lugansk clearly voted to be part of Russia. Yes, you can question the result but it was a bit more than 52%, if I may). BTW - there are already seven states reintegrating back into a sort of CIS style trading block, including some of the 'stans, Belarus and Armenia. This is not just about reinventing the Soviet Union.
So, what is happening is horrific, it's undefendable as an action but it is also possible to take a moment to understand why it was done and what the rational is behind it.
Final point - it would help a LOT if someone could get Liz Truss to read this post as her references and statements are so incorrect in their frames of history that they are insulting and completely unhelpful. That, above all, is my biggest fear - not Putin (who let's not forget has been in power since before Boris even got into politics in any form) but that the, frankly, amateurs on this side of the fence simply don't know what they are dealiing with. We desperately need a Merkel, even a Thatcher, who can handle this in the way that is needed, not some of the faux Churchillian bombast seen from too many (not just UK) leaders.
Hope that helps, as I say I'm not doing debate on it - if you disagree please feel free to do so but, with all respect, I have friends and family to be looking out for at this time so please excuse me if this doesn't answer all the points.
BTW - for anyone reading this who is Ukranian, my heart goes out to what your country is being put through. My prayers are that this can be resolved quickly and without more bloodshed.
But, and be sure, this is the single biggest threat to all our lives since at least WWII (may even including, given we didn't have nuclear bombs then). This only takes one person to misunderstand one signal, one command, one movement and we are all toast. Very, very worrying.

@BaaLocks I wish I could give more likes to your post. 
I wish the west would also stop writing one side of the story and elaborate on many of the points you've brought up. But there is no unbiased news in the West or East I guess. 

I'm not going to get dragged into too much of this because I have family directly involved but I thought I would offer a few words that might help some understand the perspective from the other side.
- Putin is not a despot, he is not in this for personal gain or infamy. He rationally believes that Ukraine was ripped away from Russia at the break up of the Soviet Union. Kiev is the historic founding of the Russian people, Russians view Ukraine as their cousins in much the same way that Scots and Irish do - they are Slavs by 'tribe' in the same way that Scots are Celts. BTW - I do recognize that Ukraine is a divided country itself and many Catholic Ukrainians (in the West of the country) would not share this view. Ukraine has been independent since 1991 but this is not a country with thousands of years of independence, for most of it's history it has been a part of Russia, Austro-Hungary or Poland. Again, I repeat, this does not entitle invasion but Putin is merely of the belief he needs to reset things to what they were.
- Consequently, Putin is repeatedly saying that what he is doing is for Mother Russia. I don't say I agree with it, but it's not as simple as the 'evil regime' some in the West are trying to put on him. Back in Russia he is very popular and has done (without doubt) a huge amount to lift up the standard of living of nearly all Russians. Moscow, and many other cities, are great places to live and the support networks that most Russians enjoy put ours to shame (schools, local councils, healthcare etc).
- This goes back to the breakup of the Berlin Wall, at the very latest. At that time the Soviet Union was dissolved, and the Russians were largely humilated in the years after with the ways they were forced to (for example) decommission nuclear weapons unilaterally in return for aid. And, as Putin says, 'even this was not enough for the West' as they then funded seperatists in Chechnya, Georgia and other areas. The West, largely the US, has interfered in Russian domestic matters consistently while at the very same time castigating Russia for doing the same (e.g. Syria).
- Without doubt, and again not trying to excuse anyone, Russians are endemically paranoid - and have been way before the WWII (or the Great Patriotic War as they call it) and are bathed in the belief that the actions of their fathers (and let's not forget without their laying down 35 million lives it is pretty clear the Second World War would not have ended when it did - at least) should not go to waste. Churchill famously described Russia as a riddle inside a mystery inside an enigma (or something maybe not in that order) and the West has repeatedly failed to see this over the past thirty years, consitently failed to take the opportunity to calm the situation and understand it from the other side.
- The West has systemically tried to undermine Russia since the Berlin Wall dissolved. Of course, in later years, Russia has reacted to this (Salisbury poisionings, election interfering etc) with clear hostility but don't forget, it's not too long since British spies were caught laying cameras outside influential locations in Moscow.
- There is a unique moment here for Putin to act. America is weak, the world is still reeling from the pandemic, Germany is in political transition, the US and the UK have (let's keep it polite) leaders that will not be remembered as the greatest to serve their country. And alongside this, Russia has been told to step back on watch the US try to control the Middle East (Iraq, Yemen, Syria, Afghanistan) among other activities. If you are interested in American foreign policy look up a concept called 'manifest destiny' - Russians reject the American belief that they have the right to go imposing their views on other people in their countries - even President Xi of China said the same thing the other day. Now when Russia says they want to 'integrate' Ukraine back under their control (again, let's not forget that Ukraine has declared intent to join NATO, to have NATO military right up against Russian borders - for a country that remembers being invaded in 1941, like it or not, this is just not acceptable so Russia sees this as the best way to prevent that) there was no reasonable way to look at that (note: in 2014 the referendum in Donbass and Lugansk clearly voted to be part of Russia. Yes, you can question the result but it was a bit more than 52%, if I may). BTW - there are already seven states reintegrating back into a sort of CIS style trading block, including some of the 'stans, Belarus and Armenia. This is not just about reinventing the Soviet Union.
So, what is happening is horrific, it's undefendable as an action but it is also possible to take a moment to understand why it was done and what the rational is behind it.
Final point - it would help a LOT if someone could get Liz Truss to read this post as her references and statements are so incorrect in their frames of history that they are insulting and completely unhelpful. That, above all, is my biggest fear - not Putin (who let's not forget has been in power since before Boris even got into politics in any form) but that the, frankly, amateurs on this side of the fence simply don't know what they are dealiing with. We desperately need a Merkel, even a Thatcher, who can handle this in the way that is needed, not some of the faux Churchillian bombast seen from too many (not just UK) leaders.
Hope that helps, as I say I'm not doing debate on it - if you disagree please feel free to do so but, with all respect, I have friends and family to be looking out for at this time so please excuse me if this doesn't answer all the points.
BTW - for anyone reading this who is Ukranian, my heart goes out to what your country is being put through. My prayers are that this can be resolved quickly and without more bloodshed.
But, and be sure, this is the single biggest threat to all our lives since at least WWII (may even including, given we didn't have nuclear bombs then). This only takes one person to misunderstand one signal, one command, one movement and we are all toast. Very, very worrying.

I'm not going to get dragged into too much of this because I have family directly involved but I thought I would offer a few words that might help some understand the perspective from the other side.
- Putin is not a despot, he is not in this for personal gain or infamy. He rationally believes that Ukraine was ripped away from Russia at the break up of the Soviet Union. Kiev is the historic founding of the Russian people, Russians view Ukraine as their cousins in much the same way that Scots and Irish do - they are Slavs by 'tribe' in the same way that Scots are Celts. BTW - I do recognize that Ukraine is a divided country itself and many Catholic Ukrainians (in the West of the country) would not share this view. Ukraine has been independent since 1991 but this is not a country with thousands of years of independence, for most of it's history it has been a part of Russia, Austro-Hungary or Poland. Again, I repeat, this does not entitle invasion but Putin is merely of the belief he needs to reset things to what they were.
- Consequently, Putin is repeatedly saying that what he is doing is for Mother Russia. I don't say I agree with it, but it's not as simple as the 'evil regime' some in the West are trying to put on him. Back in Russia he is very popular and has done (without doubt) a huge amount to lift up the standard of living of nearly all Russians. Moscow, and many other cities, are great places to live and the support networks that most Russians enjoy put ours to shame (schools, local councils, healthcare etc).
- This goes back to the breakup of the Berlin Wall, at the very latest. At that time the Soviet Union was dissolved, and the Russians were largely humilated in the years after with the ways they were forced to (for example) decommission nuclear weapons unilaterally in return for aid. And, as Putin says, 'even this was not enough for the West' as they then funded seperatists in Chechnya, Georgia and other areas. The West, largely the US, has interfered in Russian domestic matters consistently while at the very same time castigating Russia for doing the same (e.g. Syria).
- Without doubt, and again not trying to excuse anyone, Russians are endemically paranoid - and have been way before the WWII (or the Great Patriotic War as they call it) and are bathed in the belief that the actions of their fathers (and let's not forget without their laying down 35 million lives it is pretty clear the Second World War would not have ended when it did - at least) should not go to waste. Churchill famously described Russia as a riddle inside a mystery inside an enigma (or something maybe not in that order) and the West has repeatedly failed to see this over the past thirty years, consitently failed to take the opportunity to calm the situation and understand it from the other side.
- The West has systemically tried to undermine Russia since the Berlin Wall dissolved. Of course, in later years, Russia has reacted to this (Salisbury poisionings, election interfering etc) with clear hostility but don't forget, it's not too long since British spies were caught laying cameras outside influential locations in Moscow.
- There is a unique moment here for Putin to act. America is weak, the world is still reeling from the pandemic, Germany is in political transition, the US and the UK have (let's keep it polite) leaders that will not be remembered as the greatest to serve their country. And alongside this, Russia has been told to step back on watch the US try to control the Middle East (Iraq, Yemen, Syria, Afghanistan) among other activities. If you are interested in American foreign policy look up a concept called 'manifest destiny' - Russians reject the American belief that they have the right to go imposing their views on other people in their countries - even President Xi of China said the same thing the other day. Now when Russia says they want to 'integrate' Ukraine back under their control (again, let's not forget that Ukraine has declared intent to join NATO, to have NATO military right up against Russian borders - for a country that remembers being invaded in 1941, like it or not, this is just not acceptable so Russia sees this as the best way to prevent that) there was no reasonable way to look at that (note: in 2014 the referendum in Donbass and Lugansk clearly voted to be part of Russia. Yes, you can question the result but it was a bit more than 52%, if I may). BTW - there are already seven states reintegrating back into a sort of CIS style trading block, including some of the 'stans, Belarus and Armenia. This is not just about reinventing the Soviet Union.
So, what is happening is horrific, it's undefendable as an action but it is also possible to take a moment to understand why it was done and what the rational is behind it.
Final point - it would help a LOT if someone could get Liz Truss to read this post as her references and statements are so incorrect in their frames of history that they are insulting and completely unhelpful. That, above all, is my biggest fear - not Putin (who let's not forget has been in power since before Boris even got into politics in any form) but that the, frankly, amateurs on this side of the fence simply don't know what they are dealiing with. We desperately need a Merkel, even a Thatcher, who can handle this in the way that is needed, not some of the faux Churchillian bombast seen from too many (not just UK) leaders.
Hope that helps, as I say I'm not doing debate on it - if you disagree please feel free to do so but, with all respect, I have friends and family to be looking out for at this time so please excuse me if this doesn't answer all the points.
BTW - for anyone reading this who is Ukranian, my heart goes out to what your country is being put through. My prayers are that this can be resolved quickly and without more bloodshed.
But, and be sure, this is the single biggest threat to all our lives since at least WWII (may even including, given we didn't have nuclear bombs then). This only takes one person to misunderstand one signal, one command, one movement and we are all toast. Very, very worrying.

I'm not going to get dragged into too much of this because I have family directly involved but I thought I would offer a few words that might help some understand the perspective from the other side.
- Putin is not a despot, he is not in this for personal gain or infamy. He rationally believes that Ukraine was ripped away from Russia at the break up of the Soviet Union. Kiev is the historic founding of the Russian people, Russians view Ukraine as their cousins in much the same way that Scots and Irish do - they are Slavs by 'tribe' in the same way that Scots are Celts. BTW - I do recognize that Ukraine is a divided country itself and many Catholic Ukrainians (in the West of the country) would not share this view. Ukraine has been independent since 1991 but this is not a country with thousands of years of independence, for most of it's history it has been a part of Russia, Austro-Hungary or Poland. Again, I repeat, this does not entitle invasion but Putin is merely of the belief he needs to reset things to what they were.
- Consequently, Putin is repeatedly saying that what he is doing is for Mother Russia. I don't say I agree with it, but it's not as simple as the 'evil regime' some in the West are trying to put on him. Back in Russia he is very popular and has done (without doubt) a huge amount to lift up the standard of living of nearly all Russians. Moscow, and many other cities, are great places to live and the support networks that most Russians enjoy put ours to shame (schools, local councils, healthcare etc).
- This goes back to the breakup of the Berlin Wall, at the very latest. At that time the Soviet Union was dissolved, and the Russians were largely humilated in the years after with the ways they were forced to (for example) decommission nuclear weapons unilaterally in return for aid. And, as Putin says, 'even this was not enough for the West' as they then funded seperatists in Chechnya, Georgia and other areas. The West, largely the US, has interfered in Russian domestic matters consistently while at the very same time castigating Russia for doing the same (e.g. Syria).
- Without doubt, and again not trying to excuse anyone, Russians are endemically paranoid - and have been way before the WWII (or the Great Patriotic War as they call it) and are bathed in the belief that the actions of their fathers (and let's not forget without their laying down 35 million lives it is pretty clear the Second World War would not have ended when it did - at least) should not go to waste. Churchill famously described Russia as a riddle inside a mystery inside an enigma (or something maybe not in that order) and the West has repeatedly failed to see this over the past thirty years, consitently failed to take the opportunity to calm the situation and understand it from the other side.
- The West has systemically tried to undermine Russia since the Berlin Wall dissolved. Of course, in later years, Russia has reacted to this (Salisbury poisionings, election interfering etc) with clear hostility but don't forget, it's not too long since British spies were caught laying cameras outside influential locations in Moscow.
- There is a unique moment here for Putin to act. America is weak, the world is still reeling from the pandemic, Germany is in political transition, the US and the UK have (let's keep it polite) leaders that will not be remembered as the greatest to serve their country. And alongside this, Russia has been told to step back on watch the US try to control the Middle East (Iraq, Yemen, Syria, Afghanistan) among other activities. If you are interested in American foreign policy look up a concept called 'manifest destiny' - Russians reject the American belief that they have the right to go imposing their views on other people in their countries - even President Xi of China said the same thing the other day. Now when Russia says they want to 'integrate' Ukraine back under their control (again, let's not forget that Ukraine has declared intent to join NATO, to have NATO military right up against Russian borders - for a country that remembers being invaded in 1941, like it or not, this is just not acceptable so Russia sees this as the best way to prevent that) there was no reasonable way to look at that (note: in 2014 the referendum in Donbass and Lugansk clearly voted to be part of Russia. Yes, you can question the result but it was a bit more than 52%, if I may). BTW - there are already seven states reintegrating back into a sort of CIS style trading block, including some of the 'stans, Belarus and Armenia. This is not just about reinventing the Soviet Union.
So, what is happening is horrific, it's undefendable as an action but it is also possible to take a moment to understand why it was done and what the rational is behind it.
Final point - it would help a LOT if someone could get Liz Truss to read this post as her references and statements are so incorrect in their frames of history that they are insulting and completely unhelpful. That, above all, is my biggest fear - not Putin (who let's not forget has been in power since before Boris even got into politics in any form) but that the, frankly, amateurs on this side of the fence simply don't know what they are dealiing with. We desperately need a Merkel, even a Thatcher, who can handle this in the way that is needed, not some of the faux Churchillian bombast seen from too many (not just UK) leaders.
Hope that helps, as I say I'm not doing debate on it - if you disagree please feel free to do so but, with all respect, I have friends and family to be looking out for at this time so please excuse me if this doesn't answer all the points.
BTW - for anyone reading this who is Ukranian, my heart goes out to what your country is being put through. My prayers are that this can be resolved quickly and without more bloodshed.
But, and be sure, this is the single biggest threat to all our lives since at least WWII (may even including, given we didn't have nuclear bombs then). This only takes one person to misunderstand one signal, one command, one movement and we are all toast. Very, very worrying.

Yeah, but he was in the Birmingham end and started the chant

Not true (imho), in the same way it is not true to just say "I'm being ironic" or "I'm right on, so don't think what I am about to say is racist / sexist / just poor". We have parameters in society that bound what is acceptable - you can't walk down the street naked, you can't dump on your restaurant table, you can't kick someone in the head just coz you think they are a scumbag. In the same way, you can't just say anything and then frame it as comedy. I'm not saying everyone has to agree with what you say, or find it funny, but it has to be something where the value of the comedy it brings outweighs the offence it causes and where the offence is acceptable within our society.
It's also why it isn't the right thing to do to judge comedy of years gone by through today's lens. Love Thy Neighbour looks abhorrent now but at the time it was the voice of the society it lived within. Similarly muc of the music hall and burlesque we would look at as pantomime but was actually often the alt-comedy of it's day.

Best way to handle Twitter, create an anonymous account, don't follow any friends but use it to follow topics you might have interest in, post what the flippety heck you want and don't give a tinkers cuss for what you get back - they're just shouting at nothing.

I thought it deserved all the backlash it received. If that set had been delivered by Jim Davidson it wouldn't have lasted five minutes before being taken down. Just because he positioned it as 'ironic' that makes it OK to make jokes about rape and the Holocaust? Really thought it was very poor and it should be a career ender for him.

Sorry, wrong thread - this should be in Things that might annoy but then I think about them a bit and realise they don't even if they still do, just a little bit, but not in a way that really matters in the grand scheme of things. OK, more than over boiling my morning egg but not as much as stubbing my toe on the bed post. thread

As of today, we are still requiring funding of around £1m per month to keep the lights on for a team that without points deduction would be sat in  16th.
One place above a club that's losing over 400k per week.
So before we even think of bringing players into the club to rebuild, we're looking for an owner(s) that are willing to lose a minimum of £12m a year, on top of the purchase price and the stadium.
The minute they walk through the doors, they will have fans in the summer asking for a 20 goal a season striker, a keeper, a centre back, some creative players.
If we pull off the impossible and manage to stay up this season and have any Premier League ambitions?
We have to compete with clubs which could be given up to £45m in the first season they are relegated.
Not impossible, but a tough ask.
So kiss goodbye to the Premier League payday whilst waiting for the next owner to get tired of losing £12m a year for mid table Championship football.
Realise this post isn't exactly on topic, but it's a stark reminder of what we're currently looking for....a benefactor.
Football finances needs to be looked at, stop being seen as unique businesses where it's accepted they lose millions per year.
As @Anon said, player wages, that has to be the starting point. You have Lingard on over £100k a week at United and can't get a game.
That's more than the average household would bring in per year, can Lingard look at himself in a mirror and say the work he has done this week is worth £100k?
Those kind of wages have a trickle down effect into the Championship, it just can't continue any longer and until the world of football comes together and puts a stop to it, Derby County will not be the only club to find itself in this situation.
We need a global wage cap per club and that has to be based on a percentage of turnover, it's unrealistic to ever have a level playing field, Man United can't have the same wage budget as Crystal Palace to get any kind of agreement.
The EFL needs to move first on this, the PL won't as the clubs won't be able to compete in Europe.
Players would be forced to accept lower wages outside the Premier League or find themselves out of work or moving their families abroad. 
72 clubs under it's control, show the football league a sustainable 3 league model and others will follow. 
Whilst we're there, clubs paying agents fees needs to be outlawed, if a player wants an agents services, they pay them directly out their own pocket.
Stoke paid over £5.5m on agent fees between February 1st 2019 and January 31st 2020.
They have also just reported losses of over £90m. 
One morning the Coates family could wake up and pull the plug, what are they gaining from owning Stoke City? The fans are on their backs for poor managerial appointments, signings etc.
Anyway, the tl;dr is football is broken.

Yeah, but he was in the Birmingham end and started the chant

People setting up thirty seven, slightly different, variants on the same thread so that I need a Venn diagram to work out which one to post a comment in.