LeedsCityRam

Surprised not to see Martyn Waghorn v Sheffield Wednesday (May 2021) mentioned so far. Scored twice & hit the pass to Roberts for the other goal in the 3-3 draw that kept us up. He ran around like a man possessed all game & when subbed at the point of exhaustion, was still vocally encouraging the lads from the sidelines in the empty stadium.

Had we lost that match (and we were behind twice), we'd have been hit with the 21 point deduction in League One the following year & been struggling to keep out of League Two. His contribution that day was the best individual performance I can recall watching.

On 07/03/2023 at 19:03, Eatonram said:

I seem to remember the return leg was televised, I think by ITV but have never been able to track it down.

Footage from the two goals have been posted on Youtube in the past few days, with a jaunty French backing track. Enjoy 👍

Definitely renewing. Covid & last year's trauma taught me never to take watching the club for granted

4 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

Do you really take any notice of what the manager and the players say in the media? Why do they have media training? They can’t say what they truly think and their answers are carefully manicured like Beyoncé’s nails.

If Warne genuinely thought this season was a failure, he would be honorable and resign. He is saying it is a failure because he thinks that kind of accountability is what fans of a big club like ours, the big fish in a small pond, want to hear.

I prefer to make up my own mind and from my perspective, it’s not a failure nor a success, but a learning curve. 

Have we at any point this season looked like one of the top three teams in this division? If not, how have we failed?

Also, this idea that we are poor v top sides seems misguided to me. How many top sides have played us off the park and left us well beaten? Arguably two - Ipswich at PP and Barnsley at Oakwell, and even the outcome of those could be debated.

Pretty much all other games have been tight, back and forth, well-contested and decided by fine margins. The only noticeable patterns I have observed is poor refereeing, missed chances at key times, and costly defensive mistakes going against us.

We can only control two of those and I am sure Warne will be looking to add more goalscorers to the team and to tighten up the defence.

We all want to improve, we all want to see better times and progression, but I stand by what I said. You are usually very fair and even handed. There has been little evidence of that lately.

No offence Jourdan but that is a weak defence. You are in essence saying Warne & the players are fibbing on camera to keep the fans happy because their obvious disappointment at missing out contradicts your opinion. And the notion that an honourable resignation is the only true confirmation of failure is very far-fetched.

The players will have expected to finish top 6 after returning there after the Burton win (and having been there most of the past 4 months) & had two bites of the cherry last week and this to secure our spot. Of course they will see it as failure - I'd question their professional ambition if they didn't. I don't disagree that we have never looked like one of the top 3 teams but I'm struggling to think of anyone who legitimately thought top 2/3 was achievable - I certainly didn't. 6th on the other hand very much was in our grasp & we haven't done it.

And like I said earlier, disagreeing with you doesn't imply bias. You've cleared stated your position from the start with Warne & are relentless in sticking to that, which is fine but means you're not really best placed to comment on a lack of balance from others.

44 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

I feel like you have let yourself down here. We’ve missed out on the play-offs by a point, not ten. Calling it a failure is sensationalism.

You’ve long been considered one of the most respected and most measured posters on the forum, but in recent months it seems you have abandoned that sense of balance and perspective previously held.

You’ve been on a singular mission to discredit the manager, diminish any good he has done and superimpose the bad, and to what end?

Warne will be back next season and as a club hopefully we’ll have learnt lessons and be wiser and stronger after this experience. The time to be heavy handed is this time next year if Warne hasn’t moved us forward. 

Top two should be the aim.

Hang on a sec, Warne has called it a failure, the players have called it a failure (Hourihane anyway in his interview) & I happen to agree with them. So lets not pretend its an outlier opinion or sensationalist.

The attempt to tarnish contrary opinions to yours as lacking balance is pretty shameless but I would point you in the direction of my post following the win at Exeter where I was complimentary of the performance, result & specifically praised Warne. So your accusation of constant denigration of Warne is totally unfounded. I will post as I see the current situation & if Warne goes on to be successful (which I hope he does) then I will praise him accordingly - I'm not interested in this polarisation of posters into pro-Warne or anti-Warne 'camps'.

I fully recognise Warne will be back next year - the heavy handed approach would be to demand his removal which I haven't said at any stage this season nor would I do now. I just want him to be better. Glad you've mentioned top two as the aim for next season - I would agree there.

My specific point in my reply to you was in relation to the season as a whole not about today - a one-off like today can be considered unfortunate (and I'm not calling Warne out for today's result in singularity) but this result feeds into a noticeable pattern based on a siezable sample. I don't want to finish 7th again next year & hence this needs to improve.

Just now, Tyler Durden said:

This all stems back to you getting all bent out of shape as I had the temerity to call you out on a post you made a few weeks ago.

Get over it. 

Good grief, you're really not taking today well are you? 

I can see you're desperately trying to turn this personal & away from the discussion at hand; Warne's performance. Always happy to discuss the football, not interested in the childish petulance. To return the advice, get over it 👍

5 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

Reciprocally you've cheered my evening up with your tedious, predictable claptrap.

You do have some uses after all 🤣

Ah, good old ad-hominem in the absence of argument 👍

You're having a mare today 😆

5 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

Yer tell @LeedsCityRam that as he found what you said amusing.

Obviously needs to generate some more pivot charts to keep his brain occupied.

Your petulant outbursts since full-time have brightened my day a little. Keep it up 😆

54 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

Some might deem this season a failure and the anti-Warne sentiment will no doubt be in overdrive over the coming days and weeks, but it’s needless.

There's no 'might' about it - it is a failure. Warne quite rightly admits as much in his post-match interview (link below - about 4 mins in & end of interview also) & had been making similar comments in the past few weeks.

https://www.dcfc.co.uk/news/2023/05/sheffield-wednesday-a-reaction-paul-warne

Rosenior's last game in charge left us in 7th place, outside the playoffs on goal difference. When Warne was appointed to much fanfare from the club referencing his promotion record, no-one would have regarded finishing in the same position as success.

Your point about fine margins appears to absolve Warne of any responsibility for this late season collapse. His job is to get results, he has not done so & the timing very much correlates with playing better teams. We haven't been good enough over his stint in charge & he in particular has not been good enough. This season has been a missed opportunity.

3 hours ago, VulcanRam said:

Sorry, but I have to call this out. As a referee and someone who knows how observers work, nothing could be further from the truth. They are judged on getting the decisions right, nothing more. The size of crowd, hostility etc has nothing whatsoever to do with it. Give an incorrect penalty "against Derby in front of 30k at Pride Park or sending a Wednesday player off in front of 20k at Hillsborough" and you'll be marked down, simple as that. 

There's only one way to show how adept they at "dealing with hostile crowds/situations & deserving of higher profile fixtures", and that's managing the players, managing the game and getting the decisions correct. Nothing more. I know your opinion feeds into the ridiculous conspiracy that someone everyone is against us, but I'm afraid it's just incorrect. 

No need to apologise - its a forum so I'd expect opinions to be challenged, particularly by someone who clearly knows the system better than I do!

Just to clarify, I wasn't suggesting referees were giving clearly incorrect decisions to impress observers but there is an element of subjectivity with some decisions that don't necessarily fall into correct/incorrect - penalty calls being the most obvious. It clearly takes courage to award decisions against a hostile large home crowd, courage is a key trait for a successful refereeing career & that may be a factor with those marginal calls.

As I said in my previous post, I don't believe it is a conspiracy against Derby specifically but there is a lot of noise from the bigger clubs at this level about the refereeing hence my theory. Just with regard to impressing observers with decisions made in hostile environments, clearly incorrect decisions didn't do Stuart Atwell's career much harm - interested in your thoughts on his trajectory.

4 hours ago, Tamworthram said:

I know we believe we’ve been on the wrong end of far too many poor referee decisions but I would imagine Posh fans would claim they’ve had their fair share. Anyway, let’s get the job done and hope, at 2:30 on Sunday, we’re celebrating and talking about how many tickets we’ll get for the play off second leg rather than moaning about officials (rightly or wrongly) and blaming the EFL.

Reading comments from other fans of League One clubs, it seems there are similar complaints & accusations of bias. My theory is that isn't necessarily an anti-Derby conspiracy but is a 'big club' bias. Thinking it through logically, referees in League One want to referee in Premier League or international games & they way they'll do that is by impressing the PGMOL observer. What better way to do that than giving a penalty against Derby in front of 30k at Pride Park or sending a Wednesday player off in front of 20k at Hillsborough? It shows they are adept at dealing with hostile crowds/situations & deserving of higher profile fixtures.

2 hours ago, Leeds Ram said:

Really hope the Wendies don't screw us over. They're such an odd club with an odd fanbase bordering on the delusional tbh. If they do us over the gloating will be unbearable. Think it's superfluous as I doubt Peterborough will beat Barnsley like they need to. 

I think they're a decent club overall but they do have an element of their fanbase that ape Leeds Utd - 'we're massive', 'we thought up every song going', 'we're dead important'. Reality is they have spent far too many of the last 40 odd years in the third tier to consider themselves a big club & their home support is tepid at best. Sure, they can turn up for a promotion decider/one-off big game but even when doing well, they're not that well backed at Hillsborough. Admittedly a few years ago (96/97?) but always remember them playing at home one Monday night with a chance to go top of the Premiership & less than 18k were there.

Wendies on the Beach 1 Derby 1

FRGS McGoldrick

14 minutes ago, rojo said:

Well we've done our bit we've survived.

I've followed you all season and sincerely hope you join us, especially if you knock the Owls out.

Best wishes 

Thanks for the best wishes & well done on staying up. Must be a relief after the past 3 times you've been in the Championship.

What's been the difference this time do you think?

2 hours ago, Andicis said:

But top half isn't necessarily a great metric. Playing Ipswich or Wednesday is not equal to playing against Charlton, Fleetwood or Lincoln. Rosenior didn't beat any of the latter 3. Also lost to Plymouth, but beat Barnsley and Peterborough and Wycombe. 

Form smooths out over the season sure, but factors when we actually played the teams in question are relevant. It's not giving him a free pass, in fact in not considering these things I would say it would be being disingenuous. Rosenior had Barnsley, Peterborough, Plymouth and Wycombe at home, all the ones he won. 

Well all stats need a benchmark otherwise they get lost in never-ending or unquantifable variables...I believe this approach is fair as top half teams are patently better than bottom half & of course, Warne's dubious record extends beyond the top 6...we also struggle to beat Wycombe, Lincoln, Fleetwood etc. Obviously we disagree overall but out of interest, what stats or metric would you use to appraise Warne's time here to date? 

7 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

We lost 4 out of 4 against Ipswich and Plymouth but you can discount them as they are not going to be in the play offs. We beat Bolton, Barnsley and drew v Sheff Wed. We are in with a chance. Collins goal on Saturday showed what a good finisher he is, I think he has been really unlucky loads of near misses.  If we stop being unlucky in front of goal, who knows anything can happen. 

We have a chance of course but the lack of success against better sides starts to become a psychological barrier the longer it goes on (and probably reveals continued limitations in tactical set up). Speaking to a Wendy & Barnsley fan I know here in Leeds, they'd both prefer Derby as an opponent to anyone else in the playoffs. Lack of pace in side & inability to beat anyone decent both cited incidentally.

P.s. agree with point about Collins, think he's come in for some hammer this year but he is a matchwinner if given the right service & support

1 hour ago, Andicis said:

Thing is though accounting for form, you should also consider the form at the time we played them. For example, when Rosenior beat Barnsley, they had a really stuttering start to the season and their first month and a bit they actually were quite off it and dropped a lot of points. Shrewsbury and Fleetwood were no great sides when we faced them. Peterborough was a good win, but Wycombe were in the bottom half, and Lincoln were also in the bottom half and played us off the pitch. Why are we considering form now when it may not reflect form at the time? 

As before about the away wins, we actually had our more winnable top half sides, under Rosenior, so it's unfair to hold it on Warne. When we played Pompey away for example they were above us in the league and most considered it a good point.

Think we're drifting from the original point here. There is no accounting for form in the stats top half v bottom half, its purely based on the most objective measurement there is of a team's quality...their league position. There are deviations in form obviously but the league table smoothes that out over the course of a season.

Like I said previously, there is context to apply but this is subjective in nature...a team's form, how many injured players they had or a myriad of other factors (manager change, transfer window, international breaks etc). To suggest we can't statistically appraise Warne because of this though does come across as giving him a free pass.

Re your last point about top half sides faced, Rosenior faced 7 & Warne has faced 14 but Rosenior has more wins against that 7 than Warne has in 14. Again a standalone statistic.

1 hour ago, Andicis said:

It's also a relevant factor to mention that Barnsley, Wycombe and Peterborough were not as in form at the beginning of the season than when we faced them under Warne. I also think it should be mentioned that regarding your away from home statistic, we played Charlton, Lincoln, and Fleetwood away (the worst teams in the top half) under Rosenior which of course were the ones most likely to achieve three points in. This skews the statistics. 

Accounting for form works both ways though. Our highest placed away win under Warne was Exeter in 14th who we beat recently, are in awful form (lost 5 straight I believe) & shipped 5 in the first half hour to Ipswich on Sat. Exclude that & we dont have an away win at anyone outside the bottom 6. 

Just re Rosenior, he faced 7 teams in the top half out of his 9 games in charge...that would indeed skew the statistic but against him & in favour of Warne. What can't be disputed is that Warne has managed a disproportionate amount of games against lesser opposition (22 out of 36 against bottom half sides) & that he has two wins against top half sides in 14 attempts. About as objective a stat as possible although context can smooth the edges (if not totally refute) that I accept.

5 hours ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

It's a perfectly valid observation, politely put and well reasoned and certainly not as over-posted as some opinions / responses on here. I suppose I fall somewhere in the middle in that I probably assign more credit to the the unbeaten run, but the I agree that the nagging doubt with PW remains the same as the day he was announced.

For clarity, I'm currently thinking he's probably done (just) enough to earn a proper transfer window, some fresh bodies and full pre-season with the new squad, but the remaining nagging concern is that we are, in no small manner, then locked into yet another squad re-build and also committed to a style of play that may not see us prosper outside of this division. The counterargument, FWIW, would be that our season is far from over and promotion would see any such concerns, if not allayed, then rendered moot. 

I suspect your thinking is shared by the majority of folk on here & is a very reasonable position to take. Like you though I am concerned about the direction of the squad re-build but am hoping the new Head of Recruitment buys players for the long term improvement of the club rather than those specifically tailored for Warne's style. 

Didn't especially want to be drawn into highlighting his record again given we're on the cusp of the playoffs but there appears to be a campaign from certain posters to downplay his record & what we can reasonably expect from him going forward given the sample size to date. Interesting also that those replying to my post have fixated on next week rather than the points about longer term implications of him staying. Contrary to attempts to polarise debate though, I actually like Warne as a person & would like him to succeed long term here - but he needs to be better. I can make peace with him staying for next season.

1 hour ago, ram59 said:

Your stats do look depressing, but you state that we will likely need a result at Wednesday, which stats lead you to that conclusion, because Peterborough have lost away to everyone else in the top 9 this season?

We should all know by now, that nothing is certain in football, no matter what the stats say.

So you're comfortable if we get beat at Hillsborough then? By the way, stating Peterborough's record against the 'top 9' looks highly selective. The highest placed team we have beaten away is Exeter in 14th, Peterborough have beaten higher placed teams Lincoln & Shrewsbury away from home. They've also shown themselves comfortable against top 6 by walloping Plymouth 5-2 & beating Sheff Weds.

The uncertainty you allude to is mostly due to not knowing how many players (if any) Barnsley or Sheff Wed will rest or their motivation for the game. In an ordinary scenario, both Derby & Peterborough would be outsiders given their records to date..which is my point certainly with respect to Derby.

4 hours ago, Tyler Durden said:

Spreadsheets and pivot tables incoming regards our record against teams in the top half of the table.

Ask & you shall receive Tyler 😆

Full gory detail for you to digest (and then presumably dismiss for reasons unknown);

Last time I pointed out Warne's record, you purported not to understand the relevance so please allow me to explain;

1. Next week we will likely need a result away at Hillsborough to finish top 6. So far this season we have not gained one single win away from home against a top half team & in fact only two points away from home under Warne against top half sides. Now whilst they may rest some players, it doesn't exactly bode well does it?
2. In the event we do finish top 6, we will need to win at least two games to win the playoffs. Looking at those stats above, that doesn't seem tremendously likely
3. In the event we do stay down, Warne's inability to engineer results against better teams doesn't suggest anything better than another playoff push next year. Small squad we may have but we have a midfielder in League One team of the year, a striker who clearly should have been & a number of players who were perfectly competent in the division above. I don't see the quality level dramatically increasing over the summer in short.

Just to note our victories over Wycombe, Peterborough & Barnsley were all under Rosenior - in fact, he has more wins against top half teams in 9 matches than Warne has managed in 36. Not great eh?

So I'm going to carry on pointing Warne's record out until it either improves or he leaves. Hope that's OK with you 👍

A day of massive contrasts but to still be in charge of our own destiny ar the end of it is the main thing.

The atmosphere pre-match reminded me of the Brighton playoff semi...full house & a real crackle of expectation. Lot of new lads in our block in East Stand that I noticed & area was much louder than usual. We then launched into them that first 20 mins & should have been 2-0 up at the end of that period. McGoldrick's effort that hit the post was desperately unlucky but Mendez-Laing showed a total lack of conviction when presented with a chance from 15 yards out in space.

Their goal was totally unexpected & it totally knocking the stuffing out of the team & the fans. We were then chasing shadows until half-time, couldn't retain the ball at all, starting sitting deep & were pretty fortunate not to be further behind, Wildsmith pulling off two great saves. 

Second half we started playing football again & eventually got the reward we deserved from Collins' smart finish. The last half hour hastened the start of the fake Portsmouth injuries & like others on here, I'm sick of the total predictability but especially the referee's compliance of it. It needs a major crackdown for next season...my suggestion would be an immediate & automatic stretching off of 'injured' player to nearest spot off the pitch & play restarts asap with team in possession getting a throw in whilst player is getting 'treatment'. Sooner they realise they can't soak 2 mins out of the game & that the attack will continue (if attacking side had the ball), the sooner it will stop.

Obviously disappointing to not have won & it does continue our poor record against the top half sides. In the context of our season though, it has to be seen as a good day overall as Peterborough conspired to drop points too & look in bad nick. Onto Hillsborough, COYR

Derby 1 Pompey in deckchairs 0

FRGS McGoldrick

European Cup Semi Final 2nd leg – Wednesday 25th April 1973 & the return leg against Juventus at the Baseball Ground

After their 3-1 defeat in Turin two weeks earlier, Derby needed a 2-0 win as a minimum to progress to the European Cup Final but knew that an away goal for Juventus would mean they’d have to score at least 3 to take the tie to penalties & 4 to win the tie outright. The task was made harder by the suspensions of Archie Gemmill & Roy McFarland after their farcical bookings in Turin – Clough also dropped Alan Durban to the bench & started with Roger Davies, Peter Daniel & the fit again Alan Hinton. Juventus meanwhile were unchanged from the first leg.

The Baseball Ground was again packed to the rafters & the early signs looked good as Derby camped in the Juventus half with Hinton particularly prominent. The Italians were clearly hanging on around the 30 min mark & in trying to get a foothold in the game were becoming increasingly violent – John O’Hare was targeted in particular.

Highlights of the match;

Link for the full 90 mins below & a real treat for those of who never saw the 70s side in the flesh – goals & highlights are one thing but seeing their class throughout an entire game proves what a team they really were;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldL0YsVnTXo

Sadly Alan Hinton’s penalty miss on the hour mark & Roger Davies’ red card a few mins later were self-inflicted wounds that made an aggregate victory even more difficult. There were still chances when down to 10 men (Daniel, Nish, O’Hare & Hector all had opportunities) but none were taken & Boulton did well on a number of occasions late on to stop the Italians sneaking a late goal on the night. A bitterly disappointing end to a wonderful campaign & a real chance of European glory.

Pre-match copy of The Ram;

In the other semi-final, Gerrie Muhren’s goal in the Bernabeu gave Ajax a 0-1 win on the night & a 3-1 win on aggregate so setting up an Ajax v Juventus final in Belgrade on May 30th;

Ajax went on to lift their third consecutive European Cup in Belgrade – Johnny Rep’s goal after 5 minutes proving the difference in Johan Cruyff’s last European game for Ajax before leaving for Barcelona;

22 minutes ago, Warren Blufitt said:

A lot of it’s about nerves and expectations at this time of the season. Because the points are so important the tension rises, especially at home in front of a big crowd and it grows as the time runs down and you haven’t scored. Teams come to places like Derby and Bolton and park the bus and try all kinds of shytehousery to run the clock down. Sometimes I wonder if it’s not better to play away as teams open up more at home. Wanderers have 3 home games now which on paper should be realistically straightforward wins but it’s never as simple as that. I think we’ll beat Shrewsbury tomorrow but Accy are fighting for their lives and Fleetwood are on a good run so you can see potential slip ups there? Similarly you should comfortably beat Burton tomorrow and posh should lose to an in form Ipswich but I wouldn’t bet on the results going like that. As games run out the nerves get bigger, so close yet so far. I’m going to wish you luck tomorrow because I’d rather see Derby have a chance to progress than Peterborough. After what you’ve been through, like us you deserve it too. Looking forward to meeting you at Wembley then? 😉

I think Bolton will be fine, all 4 of your games look very winnable even if the opposition are likely to park the bus at the Reebok. Suspect you'll book your playoff spot with a game or 2 to go. Guess the question is more which of Barnsley or Sheff Weds you would prefer?

Whilst Burton tomorrow looks a winnable fixture on paper, they're very local to us & will be desperate to put one over Derby...imagine is the equivalent of you playing Accrington. Obviously the game at Hillsborough could decide Wendies' automatic promotion fate so not many holding out hope for points there. Therefore we will probably need Peterborough to drop points to make the top 6.

Thanks for the good wishes by the way, fair to say Bolton have had a very similar trauma to ourselves so good to see you on the up. Big fan of your manager too.

Derby 2 Brewers Droop 1

FRGS McGoldrick

A really good result & a really good performance - the most unexpected league result of the season so far for me.

The tone was set with the line up - the decision to go with Knight & Roberts as wingbacks gave the side much better balance & playing Mendez-Laing off McGoldrick gave the attacking side much needed variation & pace. I was a bit surprised by the negative reaction to the first half on here - aside from a dodgy 10 mins around the 20 minute mark, I thought we had control of the game albeit we were moving the ball around too slowly to hurt them & were too deep at times. We did look comfortable in the main though & fashioned some decent half chances, most notably Knight (who played well at RWB) & Sibley.

Second half our attitude & work-rate were excellent though. Got on the front foot right from the kick off & our intensity surprised them - they barely got into the game that first 30 mins after half-time. I really liked the interplay between Mendez-Laing, McGoldrick & Sibley & think that's a promising attacking unit we should be fielding again. Also thought Hourihane was very good, both defensively & with his forward passing/crosses.

Two fantastic goals from McGoldrick - funnily enough he had been quiet first half but his quality thereafter showed just how lucky we are to have him. Second goal in particular - such a delicate touch from Mendez-Laing's pass to make the space for the finish. Wonderful. It was such a shame that we had an absolute brainfart a couple of minutes later to gift them a goal - no idea what Wildsmith was trying to do but it was totally undeserved for an Exeter side that had been chasing shadows since the break. Fortunately we managed the game really well to the conclusion & the subs were well chosen & well timed - Collins and Dobbin to chase their defenders down and Smith to add another body to the midfield.

I'm a lot more enthused after that. Same line up & intensity for Saturday please. Well done Derby & yes, well done Paul Warne 👏