Ghosts & Ghouls

[Fraser_23]

Interesting ....

 

[Ewe Ram]

It's the same as always happens when these things are discussed. You end up saying 'I know what happened and you will not convince me otherwise'. I'm not lying or mistaken in my experiences. 

Another: and this one was the one that convinced me that psychics and mediums can be genuine. At a mediumship meeting my friend was looking for one specific answer. Her son was tragically killed in a bike accident. She was haunted by a need to know one detail of his death. The medium said that her son was now with her dead father and the dog, naming both correctly. He told her what she had been doing that day and was correct (decorating up a ladder). He then said her son was telling her that one detail she'd always wished she'd had clarity on. This was at a meeting with an audience and he had no knowledge of who would attend. 

[WhiteHorseRam]

13 hours ago, Gypsy Ram said:

 

"Yes," Cox replied.

If someone can prove to me Brian Cox exists, then things can only get better.

At the end of the day people just love ghost stories. As far as I know nobody has stayed up late around a crackling open fire drinking scotch listening to stories about the LHC. 

[Ramant62]

14 hours ago, ramant62 said:

Oh well, that's that then 

I was joking, it would take more than cox to change my mind on this. 

[Carl Sagan]

15 hours ago, Gypsy Ram said:

Sorry for the Gypsy pee on everyone's BBQ

Don't let science get in the way... @Carl Sagan

 

http://www.realclearscience.com/blog/2017/02/16/has_the_large_hadron_collider_disproved_the_existence_of_ghosts.html

 

The Large Hadron Collider (LHC) might be the world's most incredible science experiment. A particle collider seventeen miles in circumference, it accelerates protons to velocities approaching the speed of light and slams them together. Enthralled scientists from all over the world watch the subatomic demolition derby and record what happens. Thus far, they've witnessed the creation of quark-gluon plasma (the densest matter outside of black holes), found key evidence against supersymmetry, and discovered the Higgs boson, a result which garnered the Nobel Prize in Physics.

Much of the general public probably isn't aware of these fascinating, yet unfortunately, esoteric discoveries at the LHC. Particle physics simply doesn't inspire as much interest as say, ghosts. At least four in ten Americans believe in ghosts, and it's likely that even fewer people are aware of the LHC. On that note, at least one physicist contends that the LHC has, in fact, disproved the existence of ghosts.

The physicist in question is Brian Cox, an Advanced Fellow of particle physics at the University of Manchester and a popular science communicator in Britain. On a recent broadcast of BBC Radio Four's The Infinite Monkey Cage centered around science and the paranormal, Cox had this to say on the topic:

"Before we ask the first question, I want to make a statement: We are not here to debate the existence of ghosts because they don't exist."

He continued:

"If we want some sort of pattern that carries information about our living cells to persist then we must specify precisely what medium carries that pattern and how it interacts with the matter particles out of which our bodies are made. We must, in other words, invent an extension to the Standard Model of Particle Physics that has escaped detection at the Large Hadron Collider. That's almost inconceivable at the energy scales typical of the particle interactions in our bodies."

Astrophysicist Neil deGrasse Tyson, who was also on the show, pressed Cox to clarify his statement.

"If I understand what you just declared, you just asserted that CERN, the European Center for Nuclear Research, disproved the existence of ghosts."

"Yes," Cox replied.

 

1 hour ago, WhiteHorseRam said:

If someone can prove to me Brian Cox exists, then things can only get better.

At the end of the day people just love ghost stories. As far as I know nobody has stayed up late around a crackling open fire drinking scotch listening to stories about the LHC. 

Brilliant from Gypsy. As far as White Horse goes, I've met said professor on several occasions and chatted away (we bonded many years ago over our shared love of my namesake, when he wasn't quite so well known). But of course that proves nothing.

I actually think Cox is brilliant at some things but very lacking in imagination when it comes to others. He's a great advocate for science, but somewhat arrow minded. And the very best scientists have to keep an open mind. When we look at the cosmos, even if all our theories of space and time and matter and reality are completely correct, we only understand 4% of what's out there. That's the amount of normal (technically baryonic) matter in the Universe. The rest of the Universe, the other 96% is made up of what scientists call dark matter and dark energy.

So, what are dark matter and dark energy? Nobody knows. Truly. We have been devising ever grander experiements to identify them, especially dark matter, which should be easier than dark energy, and have found zilch. The great American physicist Richard Feynman said, just because you have a name for something, doesn't mean you understand it. It may be the case that dark matter doesn't even exist (though one of my most brilliant acquaintances came up with a lot of the theory so I hope for his sake he's right) but that would mean that on large scales, Einstein's general relativity isn't accurate. And the assumptions Cox (and most theoretical physicists) stick to rule that out.

All I'm saying is that there is a lot we don't know and scientists should have an open mind. I don't believe in ghosts, but I didn't especially believe the stories of big cats wandering the British countryside until I saw one one time. And the Universe is likely a far stranger more interesting place than we give it credit for.

[froggg]

14 hours ago, Boycie said:

He's a kknob head anyway, can you take him seriously ?

its all a bit "look at me" for my liking.

Read The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins all you yeah sayers , will be interested on the feedback.

[Highgate]

Didn't your namesake @Carl Sagan also say that 'extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence'? I think his book Demon Haunted World is essential reading for anyone interested in this subject and why it is that humans are so susceptible to thoughts and stories of this nature.

No doubt you are correct about keeping an open mind, that's the very heart of the scientific method after all. I don't believe any of this stuff and I'm surprised so many others do, but If new reliable (and reproducible) evidence comes to light then I would have to reconsider.

[Carl Sagan]

23 minutes ago, Highgate said:

Didn't your namesake @Carl Sagan also say that 'extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence'? I think his book Demon Haunted World is essential reading for anyone interested in this subject and why it is that humans are so susceptible to thoughts and stories of this nature.

No doubt you are correct about keeping an open mind, that's the very heart of the scientific method after all. I don't believe any of this stuff and I'm surprised so many others do, but If new reliable (and reproducible) evidence comes to light then I would have to reconsider.

Very fine knowledge. Indeed he did. And there's no documented evidence for ghosts whatsoever, though I don't really think it's the LHC that has disproved them. Just that no one has ever produced any credible/verifiable evidence at all! That said, I've not read all the thread so maybe it's buried within the pages of dcfcfans?

[bigbadbob]

On 23 February 2017 at 21:52, ramant62 said:

Aaaahhhhh puns, don't you just luv em. It would be even better to have some more personal accounts though.

Oh come on, get into the spirit of things

[r4derby]

17 hours ago, froggg said:

Read The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins all you yeah sayers , will be interested on the feedback.

That book has been widely pulled apart for inaccuracy. There is a man who just wants to be noticed. (My opinion)

What does the book say that will make the yeahsayers think? Not a slight at you, curious question...

[Broderick]

Cool fact: Ghouls originated from the Hadith. 

[Ramant62]

5 hours ago, Broderick said:

Cool fact: Ghouls originated from the Hadith. 

Whereas ghosts seem to originate in our minds 

[WhiteHorseRam]

On 25/02/2017 at 13:23, Carl Sagan said:

 

Brilliant from Gypsy. As far as White Horse goes, I've met said professor on several occasions and chatted away (we bonded many years ago over our shared love of my namesake, when he wasn't quite so well known). But of course that proves nothing.

I actually think Cox is brilliant at some things but very lacking in imagination when it comes to others. He's a great advocate for science, but somewhat arrow minded. And the very best scientists have to keep an open mind. When we look at the cosmos, even if all our theories of space and time and matter and reality are completely correct, we only understand 4% of what's out there. That's the amount of normal (technically baryonic) matter in the Universe. The rest of the Universe, the other 96% is made up of what scientists call dark matter and dark energy.

So, what are dark matter and dark energy? Nobody knows. Truly. We have been devising ever grander experiements to identify them, especially dark matter, which should be easier than dark energy, and have found zilch. The great American physicist Richard Feynman said, just because you have a name for something, doesn't mean you understand it. It may be the case that dark matter doesn't even exist (though one of my most brilliant acquaintances came up with a lot of the theory so I hope for his sake he's right) but that would mean that on large scales, Einstein's general relativity isn't accurate. And the assumptions Cox (and most theoretical physicists) stick to rule that out.

All I'm saying is that there is a lot we don't know and scientists should have an open mind. I don't believe in ghosts, but I didn't especially believe the stories of big cats wandering the British countryside until I saw one one time. And the Universe is likely a far stranger more interesting place than we give it credit for.

U R The Best Thing Carl.

The real question is why do people want to believe in ghosts, gods etc?

Like I said earlier, I think people really just like to be told a good story. You can grab everyone's interest in the pub with a tale about a possible ghost sighting or an appalling industrial accident I have found.

[Ramant62]

1 hour ago, WhiteHorseRam said:

U R The Best Thing Carl.

The real question is why do people want to believe in ghosts, gods etc?

Like I said earlier, I think people really just like to be told a good story. You can grab everyone's interest in the pub with a tale about a possible ghost sighting or an appalling industrial accident I have found.

I didn't believe in ghosts until i saw one. I never went through life wanting to believe in ghosts, or wanting to see them, as believe you me, I was petrified. It was the fact that i saw one on more than one occasion that made me believe. As for people just wanting a good story, well you can say that for just about anything you want. If people are interested, they will listen. Where it all goes wrong is when people try to sensationalise things to make a story even more interesting.

[WhiteHorseRam]

11 hours ago, ramant62 said:

I didn't believe in ghosts until i saw one. I never went through life wanting to believe in ghosts, or wanting to see them, as believe you me, I was petrified. It was the fact that i saw one on more than one occasion that made me believe. As for people just wanting a good story, well you can say that for just about anything you want. If people are interested, they will listen. Where it all goes wrong is when people try to sensationalise things to make a story even more interesting.

I think a lot of the ghost hunter type programs have knocked a lot of the credibility out of the subject. I saw about 10 minutes of the most famous UK one the other day, and it was essentially a lot of shrieking and swearing. With the lights off.

[r4derby]

2 hours ago, WhiteHorseRam said:

I think a lot of the ghost hunter type programs have knocked a lot of the credibility out of the subject. I saw about 10 minutes of the most famous UK one the other day, and it was essentially a lot of shrieking and swearing. With the lights off.

Don't forget the bit of dust that floats across the screen, the one in the slow mo replay of the ghost. 

[Broderick]

You guys should read up on the Mad Gasser of Mattoon. https://skeptoid.com/episodes/4550#

I'd have a really hard time believing anything supernatural based off anecdotal evidence after leaning about that.  The human mind is just too good at making stuff up. 

[McRamFan]

2 hours ago, WhiteHorseRam said:

essentially a lot of shrieking and swearing. With the lights off.

99% of most peoples love life.....spooky...

[Ramant62]

5 hours ago, WhiteHorseRam said:

I think a lot of the ghost hunter type programs have knocked a lot of the credibility out of the subject. I saw about 10 minutes of the most famous UK one the other day, and it was essentially a lot of shrieking and swearing. With the lights off.

...and that is why I never watch any of these programs. They try to get your attention through sensationalism. They are trying to show something that is not there, In a way, they try too hard to make a point. Seeing a ghost is easy, it makes an appearance, then the next second its gone. And I can quite understand why the majority would say it is all fake. It's usually your word against everyone else's. I have had an experience that made me question afterwards 'how could that have happened that way' and 'could I have imagined it' only to then realise that I had proof of what I saw, but sceptics would say 'but that could have been anyone', and they are probably right, only you can be certain of it.

[WhiteHorseRam]

8 hours ago, ramant62 said:

...and that is why I never watch any of these programs. They try to get your attention through sensationalism. They are trying to show something that is not there, In a way, they try too hard to make a point. Seeing a ghost is easy, it makes an appearance, then the next second its gone. And I can quite understand why the majority would say it is all fake. It's usually your word against everyone else's. I have had an experience that made me question afterwards 'how could that have happened that way' and 'could I have imagined it' only to then realise that I had proof of what I saw, but sceptics would say 'but that could have been anyone', and they are probably right, only you can be certain of it.

Good programs can be made about the supernatural. I once watched one about the ghost of Bluebell Hill in Kent. It was a mixture of the story behind the haunting, and then some good personal accounts from people who believe they have encountered it.

I keep an open mind. I would probably ***** myself if I ever actually saw one.