Luis Enrique, Guardiola, Barca

[Day]

I find it interesting that Luis Enrique has come in for stick at Barca, many calling for him to be sacked, rumours of Barca looking to replace him.

You look at the table and they are 1pt behind Real who in fairness have 2 games in hand.

Barca have lost 2 games, Real 1.

They have only conceded 1 more than Real despite the extra games and scored 7 more.

The difference is pretty much down to a couple of poor results.

To a La Liga outsider it could appear that this is a Celtic, Rangers SPL (pre Sevco) situation. Both clubs expect to run riot over every team without losing all season.

What does that say about La Liga?

Or is that harsh? Is Luis Enrique a poor manager, are Messi and Co bailing him out, covering the cracks in his ability.

Which brings me to my points.

Can a bad manager go to Barca and be successful with the greatest team of all time?

Enrique has won the La Liga title the previous 2 seasons.

Are we watching the natural decline of the greatest team of all time. Is this one season too many. Still head and shoulders above 98% of the league but performances not quite there that the tourists (sorry Barca fans, mini troll) are used to? 

Iniesta 32, Suarez 30, Pique 30, Mascherano 32

Xavi gone. 

Guardiola, Barca legend, some see him as the best manager around right now, inherited some of the best players we've seen for years.

He built the side, credit where credits due but key ingredients in his kitchen were already in the cupboard.

Only one season in at Man City, over £200m spent but 8pts behind Chelsea who were in a mess after Mourinho, finished 10th.

I believe now this is his first real challenge in management and isn't exactly standing out shall we say.

Yes I know we've been here before time and time again and I know Bris, McLovin will not agree at all, this doesn't make it trolling. Different opinions. Mine which I feel is starting to be proven right given Barca's situation.

Guardiola signed for 3 years at City, I hope he returns to Barca after then by 2020 we will see just how good this guy really is. I honestly don't think he's anything special at all, happy to be proven wrong over the next few seasons.

[Highgate]

Luis Enrique doesn't have to be bad, he seemed to do well enough at Celta Vigo to prove that he is not bad.  But is he top class?  Surely Barcelona, are looking for one of the best managers around, and there is some evidence that Enrique isn't that.

He has tried a different style, that gets the ball forward to the front 3 as quickly as possible. Maybe this was necessary, as the tiki-taka was predictable at times, but many Barca fans resent their style being altered.

Of course he has been hampered by the fact that the peerless Xavi is gone, Iniesta is aging and Busquets seems to have lost form, but on the other hand he inexplicably seemed to think that Andre Gomes was an adequate replacement and he continues to pick him for big games.

Also Enrique seems to be unable to get Barcelona to press and try to win the ball back with the intensity that was characteristic of the Guardiola teams. Not easy, i suppose when Messi and Neymar are both quite lazy when defending.

It seems that the decision has been made already and he won't be at Barca next season. 

As for Guardiola, I think he does still have something to prove, given the quality of the teams he has managed however well he has done with them. But with a touch more flexibility (like not absolutely having to play out from the back always!) I think he can do very well with City. His teams always play with energy, ambition and flair.

 

[Chester40]

Pep is a bit of a one -trick pony. Incredibly intense; hard-working...but ultimately he doesn't adapt. 

Having read Ibra's book it is clear with Pep your face fits... or it really doesn't (hence Joe Hart). Bit like Mourinho really. When if works..it works...but when if doesn't they struggle to work with what they have. That's why they need money to get in players who fit..wouldn't rate any of them at Sunderland at the moment. 

 

[Millenniumram]

Enrique will go at the end of the season I'd say, pochettino will be brought in and bring about big changes. Wouldn't be surprised to see messi sold to city, and a new younger team built around Neymar with the money brought in, as well as the next generation of youth coming through 

[Dimmu]

Long post to say I told you so by @David...

[Day]

See Real lost last night, down to one game in hand now. 

[Day]

4 minutes ago, Dimmu said:

Long post to say I told you so by @David...

Trying to explain the reasons for my thinking.

Been accused of trolling on La Liga for a long time now, I genuinely don't rate that league at all and under the Barca team in its prime I truly believe you could have stuck a number of managers in there that would have walked away with the same number of trophies as Guardiola.

An opinion that can never be dismissed or proven.

Guardiola needs time at City though despite Conte's transformation of Chelsea in the same time. I don't think he'll win the Premier League. 

Read yesterday that he's ruled out ever returning to Barca, some would say that's not to ruin what he achieved there as returns don't always work out.

I do wonder if he sees the expectations at Barca far too great and many of his golden boys will have moved on by time his City contract is up, even Messi will be closing on 33.

Huge job to rebuild a side that can come close to the one they have had in recent years.

[Bris Vegas]

Barca haven't played well at all this season and Messi has bailed them out in numerous matches. 

Neymar has lost form. But the worst side of their game now is the lack of pressing and the link between midfield and attack. Far too slow and vulnerable off the ball. PSG battered them like no other. And PSG arent really that good, theyre not even leading Ligue 1 and Arsenal bettered them in the groups.

Enrique will go. Of the almost 3 years he has been there, Barca have only hit top for for a year. The 2nd half of his first season and the first half of last season. They declined rapidly at the start of 2016 and now theyre playing their worst football since Martino's season.

As for Guardiola. Barca played their best football under him, and so did Bayern according to those at the club. But he is that good people come up with any old rubbish to try and bring him down.

I think its a natural human instinct to be jealous and trash the achievements of others.

 

[Day]

Come on, I don't deny I would love his bank account and be able to pull off a bald head like him but jealousy? Behave. 

It's looking at the jobs and the tools he had at his disposal, you're happy to say Messi has carried Barca now but it's unthinkable he may have carried them under Guardiola, calling out jealousy or trashing the guy.

First job he's had outside of a 2 horse race and he's 8 points behind a manager that also walked into a mess.

Whilst true some managers and clubs fit and Guardiola can't be judged solely on Man City achievements, if he is the genius the media portray him to be it would be nice to see him succeed at a club where he doesn't walk into having superstar players as he has.

No where am I saying he is a bad manager, just not the genius he's made out to be. Messi and co were the geniuses. Even now playing poorly 2nd in La Liga 1pt behind Real.

 

[Bris Vegas]

17 minutes ago, David said:

Come on, I don't deny I would love his bank account and be able to pull off a bald head like him but jealousy? Behave. 

It's looking at the jobs and the tools he had at his disposal, you're happy to say Messi has carried Barca now but it's unthinkable he may have carried them under Guardiola, calling out jealousy or trashing the guy.

First job he's had outside of a 2 horse race and he's 8 points behind a manager that also walked into a mess.

Whilst true some managers and clubs fit and Guardiola can't be judged solely on Man City achievements, if he is the genius the media portray him to be it would be nice to see him succeed at a club where he doesn't walk into having superstar players as he has.

No where am I saying he is a bad manager, just not the genius he's made out to be. Messi and co were the geniuses. Even now playing poorly 2nd in La Liga 1pt behind Real.

 

Guardiola created the Barca legacy. He made key signings and key decisions within the squad. He transformed the likes of Iniesta and Messi in central roles. The whole fake number 9 which was a massive success between 09-12 was his idea. You say any manager could have won... Well Rijkaard didnt, and neither did Martino. Messi at 21-22 didnt carry Barca, clearly. He wasnt even top scorer in 2009 when they won the treble.

City didnt have superstar players, so lets give him time to see if he can transform them into the best team in the world. It takes time, afterall City finished 4th last season and it would be idiotic to expect them to dominate straight away.

As for being 8 points behind Chelsea. Well im not that surprised. Chelsea have better players, they won the league 2 seasons ago and dont have europe to contend with.

Guardiola is a genius. No other manager at Barca or Bayern has played better football. Nobody!

[Day]

5 minutes ago, Bris Vegas said:

City didnt have superstar players, so lets give him time to see if he can transform them into the best team in the world. It takes time, afterall City finished 4th last season and it would be idiotic to expect them to dominate straight away

Said before needs time at City, be unfair to judge him on one season. 8pts behind Chelsea isn't a great start, Bravo for Hart doesn't need a genius to see that has been a massive fail. £200m spent you expect to see a bigger improvement, £70m of that was on Stones and Bravo, madness.

Barca yes he brought in key players but he had a decent bunch of keys already there that hit their prime. Did Guardiola play a part in their development? Of course but we're talking about World Class players here, there was no turd polishing at the Nou Camp.

I'm not sat here wanting him to fail to prove any point on a forum, I'm just seeing it like a F1 race. Stick Hamilton in the fastest car he'll win, stick him in a Haas and he wouldn't. This applies to a lot of these top managers that circle round the top clubs, much easier to manage the worlds best players than say what Dyche is doing at Burnley......don't think I'm suggesting for a second he's better than Guardiola!

[Bris Vegas]

14 minutes ago, David said:

Said before needs time at City, be unfair to judge him on one season. 8pts behind Chelsea isn't a great start, Bravo for Hart doesn't need a genius to see that has been a massive fail. £200m spent you expect to see a bigger improvement, £70m of that was on Stones and Bravo, madness.

Barca yes he brought in key players but he had a decent bunch of keys already there that hit their prime. Did Guardiola play a part in their development? Of course but we're talking about World Class players here, there was no turd polishing at the Nou Camp.

I'm not sat here wanting him to fail to prove any point on a forum, I'm just seeing it like a F1 race. Stick Hamilton in the fastest car he'll win, stick him in a Haas and he wouldn't. This applies to a lot of these top managers that circle round the top clubs, much easier to manage the worlds best players than say what Dyche is doing at Burnley......don't think I'm suggesting for a second he's better than Guardiola!

200m, of which the majority was spent on Stones, Sane and Jesus. Three young players. So what bigger improvement were you expecting? City are 2nd, playing better football than last year and are in the latter stages of th FA Cup and CL. People need to be realistic when judging Guardiola considering the job he walked in to. 

Nobody could have done the job he did at Barca. Im not just talking about the trophies, but the style in which they won. Unique.

Is it really easier to manage the best players rather than a Sunderland - considering expectation? Remind me how long Moyes and Van Gaal lasted at Utd? Ancelotti at Chelsea? Pellegrini at City? 

Guardiola and SAF are among only a few elite managers in the last 20 years who havent been hounded out or wished out of a top club by the fans. That says something. 

 

[Day]

I would expect the money to be spent much better than it has, £50m for Stones is insane, now you can't directly blame that on Guardiola there must be a budget in place that must be taken into consideration. 

Young, English increases the price but not £50m.

Expectations and targets differ from bottom of the league to top but I would find it much easier walking into a dressing room with Messi, Iniesta, Xavi, Busquets sat there.

Not all managers would be able to walk into the Barca dressing room and command the respect of those players and have them perform but I can't agree that no manager couldn't have replicated the trophy haul Guardiola achieved. It may not have been in the same style but the trophy cabinet would still be full.

Youve said yourself Enrique has been poor yet here he is still in with a shout of 3 out of 3 La Liga titles, 2 Copa Reys and a CL. 

Before Barca 40% win ratio at Roma, 37.5% at Celta which was a minor improvement on Resino.

Do you honestly see Luis Enrique leaving Barca and collecting silver wear anywhere else?

[Day]

Interesting article here back in October, worth a read but here's one snippet

Quote

There are other Barça fans without that Catalan independence bent who prefer Luis Enrique, having not completely forgiven Guardiola for leaving and joining another Champions League giant in Bayern. They would be the ones who sing the current manager’s name with a regularity that never happened with Guardiola. But most supporters are happy that both men have coached the club. 

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/news-and-comment/why-luis-enrique-could-be-set-to-pip-pep-guardiola-as-barcelonas-favourite-ever-coach-a7368211.html

I don't follow Barca fans opinions so is this true, I find it odd that here we are 4 months later discussing his departure.

[Bris Vegas]

4 minutes ago, David said:

I would expect the money to be spent much better than it has, £50m for Stones is insane, now you can't directly blame that on Guardiola there must be a budget in place that must be taken into consideration. 

Young, English increases the price but not £50m.

Expectations and targets differ from bottom of the league to top but I would find it much easier walking into a dressing room with Messi, Iniesta, Xavi, Busquets sat there.

Not all managers would be able to walk into the Barca dressing room and command the respect of those players and have them perform but I can't agree that no manager couldn't have replicated the trophy haul Guardiola achieved. It may not have been in the same style but the trophy cabinet would still be full.

Youve said yourself Enrique has been poor yet here he is still in with a shout of 3 out of 3 La Liga titles, 2 Copa Reys and a CL. 

Before Barca 40% win ratio at Roma, 37.5% at Celta which was a minor improvement on Resino.

Do you honestly see Luis Enrique leaving Barca and collecting silver wear anywhere else?

Won the same amount of titles? No, I dont believe that as Rijkaard and Martino have shown. They both had the same core players. 

Is it really easier to win the main trophies at Barca than say finish midtable with Stoke City or finish top 4 with Arsenal? I think its naive to suggest such a thing without considering expectations. Barca dont just demand trophies, they demand amazing football too. 

Enrique was good at Celta and could find himself winning trophies at another club, or at least fulfilling expectations. Why not? Someone like De Boer won multiple trophies at Ajax before being sacked after just a few months at Inter. Why couldn't Enrique? 

As for City, Guardiola has targetted players he wants to build a future around. Buying young, potentially world class players are going to cost. You say 50m for Stones is crazy? Yeah, considering his current ability, But he will be there for 10+ years at a cost of 5m per year. Is that any crazier than spending 30m on a near 30-year-old like SAF did with Van Persie?

[Day]

30 minutes ago, Bris Vegas said:

Won the same amount of titles? No, I dont believe that as Rijkaard and Martino have shown. They both had the same core players. 

Is it really easier to win the main trophies at Barca than say finish midtable with Stoke City or finish top 4 with Arsenal? I think its naive to suggest such a thing without considering expectations. Barca dont just demand trophies, they demand amazing football too. 

Think you're completely missing where I'm coming from, I'm talking about the golden age under Guardiola, the greatest team we've seen for years (yes Pep built but as I say key ingredients were there to build around), not Barca from the previous century.

Puyol, Xavi, Iniesta, Messi, Busquets, not a bad bunch to mould a team around. 

Messi barely featured under Rijkaard and was just finding his feet when he left, Martino had one season, finished 2nd 3pts behind Real, CL QF's, only at Barca would that be sackable. Like you say expectations are huge but not impossible when you have world class players which is why nobody really batters an eyelid when they sack a bloke after a season.

Similar to Celtic now in the SPL, Deila quit before he was sacked despite winning the SPL, lost 4 games all season. Stick in a better manager in Rodgers and he's yet to lose yet he's only a handful of defeats between a contract extension or sack.

Allardyce wouldn't walk in there and guarantee to come away with silverware but stick Wenger in there and he would collect a similar amount of trophies as Guardiola. 

Despite the expectations at top clubs I still think managers would find it easier to walk into a room of superstars than Stoke. 

[Bris Vegas]

21 minutes ago, David said:

Think you're completely missing where I'm coming from, I'm talking about the golden age under Guardiola, the greatest team we've seen for years (yes Pep built but as I say key ingredients were there to build around), not Barca from the previous century.

Puyol, Xavi, Iniesta, Messi, Busquets, not a bad bunch to mould a team around. 

Messi barely featured under Rijkaard and was just finding his feet when he left, Martino had one season, finished 2nd 3pts behind Real, CL QF's, only at Barca would that be sackable. Like you say expectations are huge but not impossible when you have world class players which is why nobody really batters an eyelid when they sack a bloke after a season.

Similar to Celtic now in the SPL, Deila quit before he was sacked despite winning the SPL, lost 4 games all season. Stick in a better manager in Rodgers and he's yet to lose yet he's only a handful of defeats between a contract extension or sack.

Allardyce wouldn't walk in there and guarantee to come away with silverware but stick Wenger in there and he would collect a similar amount of trophies as Guardiola. 

Despite the expectations at top clubs I still think managers would find it easier to walk into a room of superstars than Stoke. 

Messi was a regular under Rijkaard. He was Barca's standout player in the 2008 semi-final defeat to United.

And I dont believe Wenger would have won anywhere near the amount of trophies as Guardiola. Guardiola introduced the high tempo pressing game which was much more advanced than Wenger. Besides, Wenger has shown so often in the big games in the past how he gets it wrong tactically. He never bothered witha proper holding midfielder for years. Would Busquets even have beena regular under him? 

Its all speculative, but I think finishing in a safe midtable position with Stoke is easier than winning La Liga with Barca.

There is a reason why top clubs hire certain managers. You need to have something about you to manage top players and improve them. Guardiola has done it, the same cant be said of Moyes or Van Gaal who have both thrived at smaller clubs.

[Day]

2 minutes ago, Bris Vegas said:

Messi was a regular under Rijkaard. He was Barca's standout player in the 2008 semi-final defeat to United.

Wouldn't say he was a regular, last couple of seasons started to come through