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What is a 'good manager'?


Tony Le Mesmer

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I have been thinking that managers can only be compared like for like a bit like in F1 where a good driver will be one who consistently performs better than other drivers in SIMILAR cars. No point comparing Lewis Hamilton in his shiny fast F1 car against Fernando Alonso in a Ford Mondeo.

So in the Prem we can compare the managers at the very top of the tree with the most resources but we cannot compare the job Conte is doing for example with the one Dyche is doing at Burnley can we?

Bu then again we know that if Dyche managed Lincoln, Peterborough or a Championship club then his track record suggests that he will do well as he has experience of this and now he is also doing well in the Prem. Could Conte or Mourinho take over at Hartlepool for example and get them up? I don't think so. I think certain managers can only manage with money and to me that doesn't make them a good manager when compared to the likes of Howe and Dyche.

Can you imagine Wenger trying to play sexy football to get Morecambe out of league 2 on that budget? It ain't gonna happen.

So IMO there are certain managers for certain job types which makes them restricted and doesn't prove they are good managers.

Managers at the top of the Prem who can only work with money and also managers at the bottom of the Prem who specialise in keeping teams up but i'm sure given loads of cash to chuck at a situation to become top half they'd balls it up because they only have one way of managing.

I think we often go over the top about these 'top' managers when in actual fact if they all took over a league 2 team for a season then we can see how good they really are.

 

 

 

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A good manager is one that can get the very best out of his team. Whatever business they are in.

A great boss of mine once said "your greatest asset is your man-power, get them on side and you can achieve anything"

I appreciate in football a budget will allow you to buy the best but you still have to motivate them in the right circumstances. Lose the confidence of your team and you start to lose the motivation, even at the top with as much money as you like.

McClaren inherited the same bunch of players that Pearson failed with and instantly started to get results. Enough said.

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I long believed that a manager was an overated commodity at a club.  How else could you explain how a manager can be great at one club and then be a disaster at another.

I think there are so many bigger factors over whether a team does well than the manager, such as how the club is run and the squad inherited. 

Why did JFH change from a highly performing manager at Burton to a failure at QPR?  I would say that his managerial skills, if anything are probably better now than when he was at Burton but when he went to Loftus Road he inherited an overpaid bloated squad created by a combination of the last 5 managers.  I would wager that any manager would struggle in that scenario.

It may be that the most important skill as a manager is waiting for the right job.

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On 14/02/2017 at 19:31, Bridgford Ram said:

I long believed that a manager was an overated commodity at a club.  How else could you explain how a manager can be great at one club and then be a disaster at another.

I think there are so many bigger factors over whether a team does well than the manager, such as how the club is run and the squad inherited. 

Why did JFH change from a highly performing manager at Burton to a failure at QPR?  I would say that his managerial skills, if anything are probably better now than when he was at Burton but when he went to Loftus Road he inherited an overpaid bloated squad created by a combination of the last 5 managers.  I would wager that any manager would struggle in that scenario.

It may be that the most important skill as a manager is waiting for the right job.

I agree. Part of becoming a great manager in my opinion is honing your skills, good players become great players by getting 90 minutes week in and week out.*

Someone like Giggs, with no management experience, turning down jobs he feels are beneath him winds me up no end. All because he was Utd's golden boy. I can't wait for him to take over a bigger club and fail miserably because he has no real world experience.

*I'm aware there are exceptions to this

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It's a really tough question to answer because each managers job, other than to win football games, is identical.  Tony Pulis wins games, but you wouldn't want to watch his sides every week.  At the same time Liverpool are great to watch but their fans must be pulling their hair out in wanting a bit more solidity at the back to see out games.  I'm sure someone with a lot for brains, and a lot more time could develop a formula taking into account average league positions versus budgets, versus injuries, versus whatever.  As the original post alludes to, a manager can be crap at one club and great at another (see our present incumbent...), and be effected in doing his job by a lot of factors.

One thing I do wish it that chairman, especially Premier League chairman, detach themselves from the myth that if a manager is foreign he must be brilliant.  Ever since Wenger came in, there's an obsession that every manager with an exotic name is the new messiah.  It would be nice if some of the top clubs give British coaches a chance again.  Would love to see Howe have a crack at Arsenal.  And, for all his incessant moaning, Dyche would probably do just a good a job at Man U as The Special One...

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29 minutes ago, ramsbottom said:

It's a really tough question to answer because each managers job, other than to win football games, is identical.  Tony Pulis wins games, but you wouldn't want to watch his sides every week.  At the same time Liverpool are great to watch but their fans must be pulling their hair out in wanting a bit more solidity at the back to see out games.  I'm sure someone with a lot for brains, and a lot more time could develop a formula taking into account average league positions versus budgets, versus injuries, versus whatever.  As the original post alludes to, a manager can be crap at one club and great at another (see our present incumbent...), and be effected in doing his job by a lot of factors.

One thing I do wish it that chairman, especially Premier League chairman, detach themselves from the myth that if a manager is foreign he must be brilliant.  Ever since Wenger came in, there's an obsession that every manager with an exotic name is the new messiah.  It would be nice if some of the top clubs give British coaches a chance again.  Would love to see Howe have a crack at Arsenal.  And, for all his incessant moaning, Dyche would probably do just a good a job at Man U as The Special One...

I don't agree with the bit I have bolded.  When Manchester United looked for a new manager in the summer they picked Mourinho because he is a manager who had won league titles in multiple countries and won multiple Champions Leagues not because he was foreign.  Which English manager has a better record than Mourinho?  When Arsenal look to replace Wenger do you think they are more likely to consider someone like Diego Simeone who has got to Champions League finals, won La liga, and broken them monopoly of Barca - Real or Eddie Howe who has got little Bournemouth promoted and kept them up for 1 / maybe 2 seasons?

I work at a big multinational business.  If they get a new CEO do you think they will look for a top performing CEO from another big but slightly smaller business or do you think they might consider me because I am doing well in a smaller, non-comparable role?

The likes of Dyche & Howe may be top quality managers but they need to go abroad to a league like Portugal or Holland and win some trophies, play in the Champions Leagues and basically build a CV comparable to the sort that Conte, Mourinho, Klopp et al have when they get the top jobs.

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Getting the right manager into the appropriate club is not easy,I have always thought SM is a good fit at Derby ,some clubs need an extraordinary personality to  work like Fergie at Man U  he's been a tough act to follow .

As much as I like SM and CP I think they are both too familiar with the players sometimes you need to be good cop /bad cop. Clough and Taylor a good example with the added bonus of Taylor's ability to spot talent.

I am still of the opinion that someone of Pearson's persona was needed unfortunately he went about it the wrong way and I do know for a fact [directly from a player ] he was supportive not all stick by any means .

I still think SM is a number 2 [coach] despite his previous roles and that is going to be an issue going forward.

 

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5 hours ago, Grantona said:

Howe only got Bournemouth promoted thanks to the Russian billionaire's financial muscle and breaking the FFP rules - his spell at Burnley was indifferent to say the least ....and that's being kind.

I would suggest doing some research on what Eddie Howe did at Bouremouth prior to them having a rich owner.

To try and suggest they bought their way out of the Championship is ridiculous.

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On 2/19/2017 at 08:19, G STAR RAM said:

I would suggest doing some research on what Eddie Howe did at Bouremouth prior to them having a rich owner.

To try and suggest they bought their way out of the Championship is ridiculous.

Before the Russian billionaire threw his cash at it, was Howe's major achievement in getting the Cherries promoted from League Two to League One?

The billionaire was certainly there to fund their promotion from League One to the Championship. In their 2014/15 title win, Bournemouth's wage bill was about £30 million compared to £12 million turnover!!!!! That's why they got a fine for abusing the FFP rules.

If that is not "buying success", what is your definition? Ask any Burnley fan..."Who is the better manager? Dyche or Howe?"...they should know as both have managed the Clarets.

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Imo it's easier to get a lesser team playing well than a team with big egos. Lesser teams will buy into your philosophy unlike those at bigger teams. You just have to see what happened to David Moyes at Man Utd. The reason why the top managers are at the top clubs is because they have great man management skills and are great tactically. The likes of Dyche and Howe would be absolute disasters at big clubs. Neither are adaptable enough. 

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1 hour ago, Grantona said:

Before the Russian billionaire threw his cash at it, was Howe's major achievement in getting the Cherries promoted from League Two to League One?

The billionaire was certainly there to fund their promotion from League One to the Championship. In their 2014/15 title win, Bournemouth's wage bill was about £30 million compared to £12 million turnover!!!!! That's why they got a fine for abusing the FFP rules.

If that is not "buying success", what is your definition? Ask any Burnley fan..."Who is the better manager? Dyche or Howe?"...they should know as both have managed the Clarets.

No, his major achievements were avoiding relegation despite starting the season on minus 17 points and then getting promoted despite a transfer embargo...

Comparing the wage bill to turnover is silly, what do you expect Howe to do about turnover? Imagine that it more than covers their wage bill now the have been promoted.

They had the 5th highest wage bill in promotion season so it was hardly buying promotion. I know a very good example of a team with a high wage bill that have come nowhere close to emulating what Howe has at Bournemouth...

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1 hour ago, Grantona said:

If that is not "buying success", what is your definition? Ask any Burnley fan..."Who is the better manager? Dyche or Howe?"...they should know as both have managed the Clarets.

That would be a better manager for Burnley.

Zola was better manager than Rodgers for Watford, highly doubt Celtic fans would want Zola to manage them.

Nigel Pearson was good Leicester, total failure at Derby and bailed out on Hull.

Owen Coyle got promoted with Burnley, disaster at Bolton, Wigan and now Blackburn

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