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How do you define a club legend


jono

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I started this wanting to be all scientific, to try and pin a "specification" for a nailed on legend. Also because I resent the over use of legend for every player who has done a reasonable job.

It can't really be done because it is in the eye of the beholder. For the record I don't think it can be applied  to many and rarity has to be an element. They are loyal players, heroes for a moment or on a day but there has to be something unique to make a the genuine article but beyond that, it is in the memories that they bring forth for us as individual fan

@angieram..  and @Ellafella .... Great depictions and brilliant posts. 

I hope over the next few years we can make some new ones .. Starting Sunday 

 

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Bridgford Ram said:

I just missed Steve Powell as a player but he is a probably the Derby player I have seen most in social circumstances - I once saw him in a city centre cinema and I used to be in a swimming class with one of his sons at Moorways!

How good was he?  Was he regular when we were in the top flight?  Did he get close to England honours?  I seem to remember he was injured a lot, that said 420 appearances is a lot.

Would love to know more about his Derby career.

Interesting question is whether a good "war story" is also a factor that helps to define a club legend.

I missed that from my list . .....

Here's a war story....Steve powell made his debut for derby aged 16. in one of his very early appearances  (possibly his debut but I'm not 100% on that) he clattered a Liverpool player with a fair but extremely robust challenge . 

That player was famous Liverpool midfield hard man Tommy smith .  he recalled it in his memoirs later and said he just picked himself up and asked "who the f*** was that"? as he hadn't seen Steve coming. A Liverpool teammate pointed at powell who was trotting away grinning. 

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10 hours ago, Bridgford Ram said:

I have followed Derby since about 1984 (my first game) and don't honestly think we have had an actual playing legends since then.

I think they need to achieve a mix of longevity, achievement / success, performance and character.  I think we have had players who have achieved a couple of those categories but in my opinion none that have achieved all.

Apart from bobby Davison of course 

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On 12/6/2016 at 23:21, ilkleyram said:

Whole mix of things for me, much though I hate the term because at one level anyone lucky enough to play for Derby has legendary status in my eyes, especially given how crap I was at footie - except Mick Coop.

Overall ability though is not necessarily a factor, nor longevity, and I like defenders, so Peter Daniel, Roy Mac, Toddy, Rob Hindmarch, Igor, McGrath, Ronnie Webster, Dave Mackay, Bucko are all legends; Peter Shilton isn't but Matthews, Green, Boulton and Poomy are.

Archie certainly is, but Willie Carlin not, much though I loved him; Asanovic is but Rioch not;  Hector, Hinton, Davison, Roger Davies and Saunders are; Charlie George - the best footballer I've seen in a white shirt - not.

In short I've no idea how you define it but jeez I've seen some good players

Amongst non players - Sir Brian and Peter, Dave Mackay again, Arthur and Jim - Steve McLaren's getting that way; Lionel, Mel and Sam Longson probably there too, along with Stuart Webb

 

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before i get back on track how the hell can you class longson as a legend the guy sacked Cloughie  lol lol

ok my first derby county hero was Ray Straw  joint holder of club record with 37 goals was he a legend no but i loved at the time the other  holder with 37 goalas  all scored in the then 1st division must go down as a legend on his way to 37 he had a run of 15 goals in  6 matches not bad for a guy who missed the first 9 matches through injury so here goes with my picks Goalkeepers Shilton with Poom as almost

Defenders  Mackay best  by far     Todd   Nish   MacFarland what a back 4

Midfield  Gemmil even if its only due to the foal he scored against Brazil   Erainio

Strickers  Hector      George

Mangers  Cloughie

Directors/ Owners   Pickering     Morris

players  before my time Bloomer Barker Stamps Carter Doherty

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1) who picked Clough and Taylor in the first place?

2) who ploughed their money into the club for many seasons and oversaw one of its best ever periods of success?

3) on a technical, but important, point Longson did not sack Clough and Taylor. They resigned by letter written by Gerald Mortimer if I recall, and he accepted their resignation. He also appointed Dave Mackay to replace them. Not a bad judge as a picker of football managers.

I never met him and as a human being no doubt he had his faults, but as a non playing legend of the club he certainly deserves to be included.

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13 hours ago, Daz_The_Ram said:

You simply cannot tell me that he is in the same bracket. Nowhere near it. He doesn't even stand a prayer of getting into the current side for goodness sake.

I find this line funny, just remind me how close the players you would consider legends are to starting for us? Is it not the fact of what a player has done for us not what they are doing for us that makes them legendary?

13 hours ago, Daz_The_Ram said:

he has never been responsible for 'changing everything' as say, someone like Stimac. That is the mark of a legend.

He has done something at this club that no player has done in over 100 years (hat trick against Forest), and something only a few players have ever done for us (win POTS award more than once).

Surely each person has their own legends and if @Leicester Ram sees Bryson as a legend in his eyes then who are any of us to tell him otherwise.

Imagine how bad it must feel not to have seen any players that people older than you would not consider legends and that you are told they are not and that you are wrong to believe they are.

What if someone turned round and said Bobby wasn't a legend cos he didn't do what King Kev, Franny and Charlie did, or he wasn't as good as those?

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1 hour ago, rynny said:

I find this line funny, just remind me how close the players you would consider legends are to starting for us? Is it not the fact of what a player has done for us not what they are doing for us that makes them legendary?

He has done something at this club that no player has done in over 100 years (hat trick against Forest), and something only a few players have ever done for us (win POTS award more than once).

Surely each person has their own legends and if @Leicester Ram sees Bryson as a legend in his eyes then who are any of us to tell him otherwise.

Imagine how bad it must feel not to have seen any players that people older than you would not consider legends and that you are told they are not and that you are wrong to believe they are.

What if someone turned round and said Bobby wasn't a legend cos he didn't do what King Kev, Franny and Charlie did, or he wasn't as good as those?

Sitting on the fence and Messing with words I'd say the 5-0 drubbing we gave them is a legendary match and Bryson made an epic and unique contribution to that. .. Does that make him a club legend or maker of a legendary moment ? I have come to see these things as deeply personal but on the grounds that Dads and Grandads ( and mums and grandmas ) will be passing the story and his name down the ages then let's get him in the book ! 

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17 hours ago, Bridgford Ram said:

Harsh but fair.  I agree with all of that, except I don't think Stimac is a legend - as good as he was and as important it was for us to get him on the team sheet each week I think he didn't play enough games for us to be put in the same bracket as the others mentioned in this post.

Can I just ask - would people class Mackay as a legend for his playing performances for Derby alone or is the view clouded by his earlier football career or his managerial spell at Derby?  Not saying he isn't a legend, just wondering.

Interesting question that regarding Mackay. I had the same conversation with my Dad last night as we discussed this forum. He saw the great man throughout his career of course.

What he said was that, as you allude to ... Mackay already was a legend before he came to Derby. I agree entirely, however my point would be that, as the story goes, he was absolutely pivotal in kickstarting things as captain under Clough and Taylor. He does have this kind of mythical quality I think ... the stuff legends are made of indeed!

 

For me, definitely could be classed a Derby legend for the playing alone,I don't think many would disagree, and the obvious addition of managing us to the title cements it literally beyond any doubt whatsoever.

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16 hours ago, Leicester Ram said:

I should clarify, I think there's different tiers of Derby legend. The untouchables (or Gods, I'm throwing around Derby Gods a bit) are Bloomer, Stamps, Crooks, McFarland, Hector, Mackay and Todd, the ones who's achievements are almost unfair to compare to anyone who have ever played for Derby since. Maybe Ron Webster too.

You're lumping in Stimac with the untouchables, what's the difference between you making the case for the closest thing you've got to a Derby legend from your adolescence and me doing it with Bryson? Stimac comes pretty bloody close, but for me he falls into the same lower tier of legend as Bryson, the same category that the likes of Davison, George and Shilton inhabit. 

Difference between you and me, I've just checked your profile and you're around twice my age, is that I'd say there's about 30 odd Derby legends, not just 5.

I think it's unfair to call that lot cult heroes, because just as you'd argue that putting Bryson in the same category as the untouchables lessens their achievements, putting someone like Baiano in the same category as Bryson lessens his achievements and commitment to the club.

Baiano, Wanchope and Buxton are cult heroes, they hardly compare to the likes of Bobby Davison or Charlie George, do they?

For me, the criteria for that lower tier of legend is this:

Long period spent with club: check

Showed unusual commitment/loyalty to club, loves club: check

Historic achievement or success with the club: check

Ideally, you want them to check all three, but if you overwhelmingly have one or two, I think that qualifies you too. Bryson checks all three.

Obviously, it depends on how selective you are with the term 'legend' but I don't think it's a bad thing to be more liberal with it than stingy.

Thats a fair post. I think the word 'legend' is one that is far too easily bandied about. Similar to 'great' and should be reserved for the very few. Perhaps there should be another definition, for those that are, as you say, borderline.

My point about Stimac was, that he came in and literally changed everything. He was like a god during his time here some twenty years ago. He was worshipped, that is not an exaggeration. That, for me, is why he would get in.

I've seen the likes of Davidson, Saunders, Goddard, Wright, Shilton, Eranio, Asanovic, McGrath, van der Laan, and so on and so on ...


All of which, because, as you rightly point out, were my heroes as a younger fan ... but I stop short of classing them as out and out club legends, they belong in that second tier I think, quite correct. Well put. Definitions anyone?

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4 hours ago, rynny said:

I find this line funny, just remind me how close the players you would consider legends are to starting for us? Is it not the fact of what a player has done for us not what they are doing for us that makes them legendary?

He has done something at this club that no player has done in over 100 years (hat trick against Forest), and something only a few players have ever done for us (win POTS award more than once).

Surely each person has their own legends and if @Leicester Ram sees Bryson as a legend in his eyes then who are any of us to tell him otherwise.

Imagine how bad it must feel not to have seen any players that people older than you would not consider legends and that you are told they are not and that you are wrong to believe they are.

What if someone turned round and said Bobby wasn't a legend cos he didn't do what King Kev, Franny and Charlie did, You're honestly debating whether the players I listed would get into this current sideor he wasn't as good as those?

Hang on. You are seriously debating whether the players I mentioned would get into this current side? Don't talk soft man. Think about it.

You are confusing definitions.

People have 'heroes' ...including myself, that does not necessarily make them genuine club legends.

One of my all time favourite midfielders for Derby is George Williams. Nowhere near the status of 'legendary, but a 'hero' of mine nonetheless.
 

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2 minutes ago, Daz_The_Ram said:

Hang on. You are seriously debating whether the players I mentioned would get into this current side? Don't talk soft man. Think about it.

You are confusing definitions.

People have 'heroes' ...including myself, that does not necessarily make them genuine club legends.

One of my all time favourite midfielders for Derby is George Williams. Nowhere near the status of 'legendary, but a 'hero' of mine nonetheless.
 

It was one of your points of why Bryson cannot be classed as a legend (because he can't get in this team) and I was merely pointing out that other legends aren't getting in this team either, hence why I said what he has done in the past not currently.

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On 7 December 2016 at 10:04, Tony Le Mesmer said:

My definition of a legend is someone who has longevity at a club and you just know playing for that club and living and breathing the club is of primary importance.

Alan Shearer at Newcastle. Not because of his goals but because he gave his all year on year and playing and scoring meant everything to him.

Ian Rush. Matt Le Tissier.

A player could score 60 goals in 2 seasons and win trophies but then move on to another club and do the same for a couple of seasons. They aren't legends. They are serving themselves rather than the club.

We talk about loyalty in football and players back in the day had that. Nowadays it doesn't really exist anymore bar a few exceptions.

It's all about chasing the money for a large percentage of players and the prestige of playing for as bigger club as you can.

That's what I don't get about footballers. They claim to be a boyhood fan of say Yeovil but then won't play for them towards the twighlight of their careers even when they've already made enough money.

I just hate badge kissers. Every one of them today is a hypocrite. Empty gestures and all that.

Funny one with Shearer. He won absolutely nowt but scored lots of goals. The locals love him more because he's a sacred geordie so that overrides their senses.

They don't seem to accept that maybe his selfish pursuit of their goal scoring records whilst injured and becoming increasingly ineffective as a player actually led to the downturn in their form and ultimately ended in them going doon. Maybe if he'd hung up his boots earlier and let a fit and efficient striker take his place, if he'd not meddled in their team selections and transfers, not created cliques and allowed for an alternative style of football other than every move and attack centred around Alan, then they might have had some actual success. Maybe.

 

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On 7 December 2016 at 10:04, Tony Le Mesmer said:

My definition of a legend is someone who has longevity at a club and you just know playing for that club and living and breathing the club is of primary importance.

Alan Shearer at Newcastle. Not because of his goals but because he gave his all year on year and playing and scoring meant everything to him.

Ian Rush. Matt Le Tissier.

A player could score 60 goals in 2 seasons and win trophies but then move on to another club and do the same for a couple of seasons. They aren't legends. They are serving themselves rather than the club.

We talk about loyalty in football and players back in the day had that. Nowadays it doesn't really exist anymore bar a few exceptions.

It's all about chasing the money for a large percentage of players and the prestige of playing for as bigger club as you can.

That's what I don't get about footballers. They claim to be a boyhood fan of say Yeovil but then won't play for them towards the twighlight of their careers even when they've already made enough money.

I just hate badge kissers. Every one of them today is a hypocrite. Empty gestures and all that.

Check out Luke Chadwick .. I think I am right in saying .. Cambridge fan .. Man U starlet that didn't quite make it to the airstream but a quality player .. Played at Burnley and elswhere  I suppose. Then off to Cambridge and I think he played for them for free because he wanted to .. Nice 

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I like the idea that to have cult status you do something to connect with the fans and generally it's at one club and doesn't relate always to achievement. For example bucko, McMinn, Nigel Callaghan, eranio? 

Legend I would agree bobby Davison, some of the championship sides, but since BD probably no legends for me. 

Bryso maybe in 5 years maybe hughesy in 8? We'll see what we achieve. 

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On ‎07‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 13:12, Daz_The_Ram said:

As much I loved the era of the Bald Eagle ... to class him in the same bracket as the other two is a bit wide of the mark. 

95/96 was the first season I was old enough to know and understand footy. The Bald Eagle is very much a club legend to me and how close have we got to finishing as high in the top league in the near 20 years since? And we were lucky to have players of the calibre of Stimac and Eranio playing for us!

Will Bryson be seen as a legend? He certainly ticks the boxes but it doesn't feel right just yet. I blame the internet for taking away the mythical aura players used to have(or it is just me realising I am getting old).

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12 hours ago, BondJovi said:

95/96 was the first season I was old enough to know and understand footy. The Bald Eagle is very much a club legend to me and how close have we got to finishing as high in the top league in the near 20 years since? And we were lucky to have players of the calibre of Stimac and Eranio playing for us!

Will Bryson be seen as a legend? He certainly ticks the boxes but it doesn't feel right just yet. I blame the internet for taking away the mythical aura players used to have(or it is just me realising I am getting old).

I appreciate that post. Of course it is a generational thing for many. My argument is really that 'legends' are somewhat universally accepted as such and transcend those generational differences.

As for Jim Smith, it was a fantastic, and excirting era ... a special time in my life too as I was trying to make my own way in the professional game. I'll never forget nights such as the one where we destroyed Birmingham 4-1 at St. Andrews, or the night we came back to beat Coventry 3-2 in the cup, one of the last great floodlit nights at the Baseball Ground.

It was that night at Birmingham in particular, that I realised, Jim Smith was building a really, really special side.

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