How do you define a club legend

[Fraser_23]

CHRIS BAIRD

[Daz_The_Ram]

17 minutes ago, PodgeyRam said:

What would your most famous victory over them be? Being a Derby fan they're all big wins over them, but I think the 5-0 is one that will be remembered not just by fans of both clubs, but people who aren't fans of either club.

I have seen us beat far, far, far, far superior Forest sides than that one in the '80s. Floodlit evenings at the Baseball Ground, all that stuff. To me, that is legendary. Perhaps its an age thing.

The 5-0 one was fantastic of course, because of the milestones/records and all that...however, in a similar era, sure the one at the City Ground when we turned them over with ten men is right up there? That was one hell of a display.

[Gritstone Ram]

If a legend was based upon a player that inspired you and did a great service to the club. A player that was a light in what could only be described as dark times. He scored over 90 goals for the club. Everyone chanted his name on the terraces. When I was 12 I even caught a bus from Matlock to Derby bus station then walked to the Bbg and bought a t-shirt with a picture of him on it.

It has to be Bobby Davison. 

Ohhh Bobby Bobby

Bobby Bobby Bobby Bobby 

Davison.

[PodgeyRam]

13 minutes ago, Daz_The_Ram said:

I have seen us beat far, far, far, far superior Forest sides than that one in the '80s. Floodlit evenings at the Baseball Ground, all that stuff. To me, that is legendary. Perhaps its an age thing.

The 5-0 one was fantastic of course, because of the milestones/records and all that...however, in a similar era, sure the one at the City Ground when we turned them over with ten men is right up there? That was one hell of a display.

That's the thing isn't it. I can only go based of what I've seen and my first season as a Derby fan was the 11 point Premier League season! So pretty slim pickings really.

You're no doubt correct when you say that we beat better Forest teams than that one. But just because they were better wins it doesn't make them more famous, especially when compared to these days where we're on Sky every time we play them.

[Daz_The_Ram]

6 minutes ago, PodgeyRam said:

That's the thing isn't it. I can only go based of what I've seen and my first season as a Derby fan was the 11 point Premier League season! So pretty slim pickings really.

You're no doubt correct when you say that we beat better Forest teams than that one. But just because they were better wins it doesn't make them more famous, especially when compared to these days where we're on Sky every time we play them.

Depends on one's definition of 'famous' ... but I take your point.

'Given more coverage' is a phrase i might have used for the modern day vintage.

 

[loweman2]

1 hour ago, PodgeyRam said:

What would your most famous victory over them be? Being a Derby fan they're all big wins over them, but I think the 5-0 is one that will be remembered not just by fans of both clubs, but people who aren't fans of either club.

Well this one is part of folklore for starters !?

 

[MuespachRam]

The 5-0 win was amazing...one of the best games ever....but, not a patch, not even in the same hemisphere as when we beat them 4-1...!

The definition someone gave earlier about the difference between legends and cult heroes was spot on, Bucko, Hindmarch, Stimach, McMinn are classic examples of cult heroes whereas Brian, Mackay and Roy Mac are legends.....I would personally put Bobby Davison in his own category....a legendary cult hero....in my mind he never missed a chance he got, he never looked like missing.....but I guess he must have done.

[MuespachRam]

3 minutes ago, loweman2 said:

Well this one is part of folklore for starters !?

 

Archie Gemmil, the original Shoreditch Hipster

[loweman2]

8 minutes ago, MuespachRam said:

Archie Gemmil, the original Shoreditch Hipster

 

[Gritstone Ram]

10 minutes ago, loweman2 said:

Well this one is part of folklore for starters !?

 

My first Derby - Forest match.

[Leicester Ram]

1 hour ago, Daz_The_Ram said:

Absolutely nowhere near the top bracket of players that have represented us. Let alone a legend. Yes ... a memorable performance ... a club legend over a sustained period? ... no. By the way, I'd hardly call it our most famous victory over them. That was NOT a good Forest side. 
 

Obviously we've had better players, but I think it's wrong to discriminate in that way. Is Jimmy Glass less of a Carlisle legend because they've had better keepers play for them? I believe that one single significant act, no matter the level it's at, can make you a club legend.

He may not be a cornerstone of the most glamorous part of our history, but he's been a constant in the side for around 6 years, in which he's been almost always one of our best players and really dedicated himself to Derby.

You mention in the thread the ten men victory. Played in that and scored the only goal in a win at the City Ground a year later.

Scored twice when we came back from 4-1 down against Ipswich, probably one of the best Derby comebacks of the modern era, considering the McClaren half-time intervention back story.

Scored two league hat-tricks in one season in 13/14, which is even more impressive considering the last time we'd had a league hat-trick was 1996.

One of them was a HAT-TRICK AGAINST FOREST, something that's only ever been matched by Steve Bloomer, you know the bloke from that song.

Arguably the key player in an 8 game winning streak at the end of 2013, scoring 5 in 6 games during the run. I think that's one of our longest ever winning streaks?

2 POTY awards, one in 13/14, the season Derby have amassed the most points in ever, since it became 3 points for a win.

As far as relative achievement goes, he's the only player this side of the century that stands a chance at being called a Derby legend.

[North East Ram]

12 minutes ago, MuespachRam said:

The 5-0 win was amazing...one of the best games ever....but, not a patch, not even in the same hemisphere as when we beat them 4-1...!

The definition someone gave earlier about the difference between legends and cult heroes was spot on, Bucko, Hindmarch, Stimach, McMinn are classic examples of cult heroes whereas Brian, Mackay and Roy Mac are legends.....I would personally put Bobby Davison in his own category....a legendary cult hero....in my mind he never missed a chance he got, he never looked like missing.....but I guess he must have done.

No. He never missed. Even if you provide proof, I'm not having it. 

Similar to Samson (the mythical one, not Kenny), I was worried that when Bobby got rid of his tash, his powers would fade. But not Bobby. He just got better.

 

[jono]

54 minutes ago, loweman2 said:

Well this one is part of folklore for starters !?

 

Bunch of sissies pulling out of tackles, playing on a bowling green, no commitment. Show that to the kids of today and they won't believe you 

brilliant ! 

[Daz_The_Ram]

1 hour ago, Leicester Ram said:

Obviously we've had better players, but I think it's wrong to discriminate in that way. Is Jimmy Glass less of a Carlisle legend because they've had better keepers play for them? I believe that one single significant act, no matter the level it's at, can make you a club legend.

He may not be a cornerstone of the most glamorous part of our history, but he's been a constant in the side for around 6 years, in which he's been almost always one of our best players and really dedicated himself to Derby.

You mention in the thread the ten men victory. Played in that and scored the only goal in a win at the City Ground a year later.

Scored twice when we came back from 4-1 down against Ipswich, probably one of the best Derby comebacks of the modern era, considering the McClaren half-time intervention back story.

Scored two league hat-tricks in one season in 13/14, which is even more impressive considering the last time we'd had a league hat-trick was 1996.

One of them was a HAT-TRICK AGAINST FOREST, something that's only ever been matched by Steve Bloomer, you know the bloke from that song.

Arguably the key player in an 8 game winning streak at the end of 2013, scoring 5 in 6 games during the run. I think that's one of our longest ever winning streaks?

2 POTY awards, one in 13/14, the season Derby have amassed the most points in ever, since it became 3 points for a win.

As far as relative achievement goes, he's the only player this side of the century that stands a chance at being called a Derby legend.

Quite frankly, no one since Stimac is within a thousand miles of the status.

Bryson? Cult hero. Nothing more...a few memorable performances in the second division, no promotion honours...so what? You'll find that the reason for us beating Forest with ten men was a fantastic team display.

So ... spot the odd one out ...

Mackay, Todd, McFarland, Hector, Stimac ... Bryson.

Bryson quite simply will not transcend the generations as did the first four, and he has never been responsible for 'changing everything' as say, someone like Stimac. That is the mark of a legend.

You simply cannot tell me that he is in the same bracket. Nowhere near it. He doesn't even stand a prayer of getting into the current side for goodness sake.

 

[Bridgford Ram]

49 minutes ago, Daz_The_Ram said:

Quite frankly, no one since Stimac is within a thousand miles of the status.

Bryson? Cult hero. Nothing more...a few memorable performances in the second division, no promotion honours...so what? You'll find that the reason for us beating Forest with ten men was a fantastic team display.

So ... spot the odd one out ...

Mackay, Todd, McFarland, Hector, Stimac ... Bryson.

Bryson quite simply will not transcend the generations as did the first four, and he has never been responsible for 'changing everything' as say, someone like Stimac. That is the mark of a legend.

You simply cannot tell me that he is in the same bracket. Nowhere near it. He doesn't even stand a prayer of getting into the current side for goodness sake.

 

Harsh but fair.  I agree with all of that, except I don't think Stimac is a legend - as good as he was and as important it was for us to get him on the team sheet each week I think he didn't play enough games for us to be put in the same bracket as the others mentioned in this post.

Can I just ask - would people class Mackay as a legend for his playing performances for Derby alone or is the view clouded by his earlier football career or his managerial spell at Derby?  Not saying he isn't a legend, just wondering.

[Bridgford Ram]

5 hours ago, richinspain said:

One player who has never been suggested as a club legend who, for me, should be in the top 1 is Steve Powell. Played 420 games for the club over 14 years. He played in both of the league champions seasons as well as European Cup campaigns. A "true" legend who never gets the recognition he so thoroughly deserves. Probably because his career spanned what was the worst period in our recent history, but he was one of very few who could hold their head high throughout.

I just missed Steve Powell as a player but he is a probably the Derby player I have seen most in social circumstances - I once saw him in a city centre cinema and I used to be in a swimming class with one of his sons at Moorways!

How good was he?  Was he regular when we were in the top flight?  Did he get close to England honours?  I seem to remember he was injured a lot, that said 420 appearances is a lot.

Would love to know more about his Derby career.

[Leicester Ram]

1 hour ago, Daz_The_Ram said:

Quite frankly, no one since Stimac is within a thousand miles of the status.

Bryson? Cult hero. Nothing more...a few memorable performances in the second division, no promotion honours...so what? You'll find that the reason for us beating Forest with ten men was a fantastic team display.

So ... spot the odd one out ...

Mackay, Todd, McFarland, Hector, Stimac ... Bryson.

Bryson quite simply will not transcend the generations as did the first four, and he has never been responsible for 'changing everything' as say, someone like Stimac. That is the mark of a legend.

You simply cannot tell me that he is in the same bracket. Nowhere near it. He doesn't even stand a prayer of getting into the current side for goodness sake.

 

I should clarify, I think there's different tiers of Derby legend. The untouchables (or Gods, I'm throwing around Derby Gods a bit) are Bloomer, Stamps, Crooks, McFarland, Hector, Mackay and Todd, the ones who's achievements are almost unfair to compare to anyone who have ever played for Derby since. Maybe Ron Webster too.

You're lumping in Stimac with the untouchables, what's the difference between you making the case for the closest thing you've got to a Derby legend from your adolescence and me doing it with Bryson? Stimac comes pretty bloody close, but for me he falls into the same lower tier of legend as Bryson, the same category that the likes of Davison, George and Shilton inhabit. 

Difference between you and me, I've just checked your profile and you're around twice my age, is that I'd say there's about 30 odd Derby legends, not just 5.

I think it's unfair to call that lot cult heroes, because just as you'd argue that putting Bryson in the same category as the untouchables lessens their achievements, putting someone like Baiano in the same category as Bryson lessens his achievements and commitment to the club.

Baiano, Wanchope and Buxton are cult heroes, they hardly compare to the likes of Bobby Davison or Charlie George, do they?

For me, the criteria for that lower tier of legend is this:

Long period spent with club: check

Showed unusual commitment/loyalty to club, loves club: check

Historic achievement or success with the club: check

Ideally, you want them to check all three, but if you overwhelmingly have one or two, I think that qualifies you too. Bryson checks all three.

Obviously, it depends on how selective you are with the term 'legend' but I don't think it's a bad thing to be more liberal with it than stingy.

[Ellafella]

Very interesting and thought-provoking debate....should the Club introduce a "List of Legends". It's possible that an agreed set of criteria can be established...it would need to allow for past, deceased players to be included. Maybe a Legends Board somewhere in the club, a bit like the list of cricketers at Lords?

A "legend" is "...An extremely famous or notorious person, especially in a particular field" (Oxford English) so that's not so helpful. 

Dave Webb...would he count? for example. I remember singing "Webby for England" on the Ossie End in front of a panting Dave Webb, blood-stained shirt, after a performance that was akin to Dave Mackay, giving every shread of what he had in a struggling Derby side in the early 1980's. His face was full of pride as he watched the Ossie End chant his name. He was 36/37 at the time and at the end of his career..BUT he was simply not going to do anything but fight for the shirt that day. For me the sine qua non is to give your all in a very noticeable way (eg Bucko, Ron Webster, Roy Mac, Dave Mackay, wee Archie, Alan Hinton).... It's all a bit like defining a "national treasure"...it has that subjective component that might just defy proper elucidation...

[angieram]

All this debate about legends makes me smile. I think legend status is guaranteed when there is no video evidence to the contrary.

I remember Colin Todd giving the ball away when he was dribbling out of the penalty area but we aren't allowed to mention that. If he played today there'd be a thread saying - "always got a mistake in him."

My favourite players of all time - said Colin Todd, Charlie George, ooh Mark Wright.

I don't think that it's what I call them that matters, it's how I remember them. 

[Rev]

9 minutes ago, angieram said:

All this debate about legends makes me smile. I think legend status is guaranteed when there is no video evidence to the contrary.

I remember Colin Todd giving the ball away when he was dribbling out of the penalty area but we aren't allowed to mention that. If he played today there'd be a thread saying - "always got a mistake in him."

My favourite players of all time - said Colin Todd, Charlie George, ooh Mark Wright.

I don't think that it's what I call them that matters, it's how I remember them. 

Once in a while @angieram,  could you chuck in a poor post, just to make the rest of us feel better?