Was Brian Clough more of derby fan or a forest fan? And what about the clough family?

[Mostyn6]

57 minutes ago, ronnieronalde said:

Wow.

We probably need to go back to ignoring or fighting each other after that post Mostyn.

 

Black and white Ronnie. Black and white.

[cosmic]

6 minutes ago, Mostyn6 said:

Black and white Ronnie. Black and white.

Ronnie's red, isn't he? 

[mozza]

ronnies , ronnie ..

don't even think he knows what he is , bless him .

[G STAR RAM]

Wasn't he just a passionate employee of both? 

Being from the North East, I would imagine he was a Newcastle or Sunderland fan. 

Like a few have said, he was only ever a red in my lifetime, so meant nothing to me, something I always stated when defending Nigel Clough.

[londonbridgeram]

When Clough and Taylor came to Derby their rise in status and results was fantastic. They were a brilliant pairing and got it right, time after time. How must they have felt. Then we had the clash of egos with Longson and Clough and we know the rest. And we know what happened in later years with that there team from somewhere to the East. But thinking of how Clough (and Taylor) felt after winning the 1st division title so soon. Well, it's bound to be upmost in your mind as your career progresses. And the more you win, the more cups and titles you win, the less significance those wins have. So I'll take Clough as a Derby fan because those times at Derby were the most significant and exciting times of his career (this is my theory). And, I'll happily sing along with any song that Derby fans could come up with the song that basically says to Forest that - if it wasn't for Derby County you'd have won f**k all. Famous team my arse.

[EssendonRam]

On 6 December 2016 at 12:11, CLOUGH1971-72 said:

It's something I always argue with forest fans about because they seem to think that mr Clough was more forest because he was with them 18 years and won 2 European cups with them in the 70s. They also say they had the first statue put up and we copied them. And they named there biggest stand after him, where we haven't got anything like that. He got the freedom of Nottingham in 1992 and the freedom of derby in 2003. They say forest fans truely love him and we don't! 

Now I think he was more derby. Look at the facts. He moved to derby in 1967 and never left. All the Clough family still live in derby to this day. Are they derby fans or forest? Brian wrote in his book that winning the title at derby was his best archivement. And derby would be the Liverpool of the 70s and 80s had he stayed. He also says the baseball ground had the greatest atmosphere out of any football ground in England. Also he had his mermorial service at pride park and not the city ground.

when was he at his peak derby or forest?

What do you all think?

I both love and hate this argument. I love it because it shows how important he still is to both clubs; I hate it because it almost always degenerates into a tish-fight instead of respecting the greatest manager either club has ever, or will ever, have.

Bearing in mind, I am an Australian who was 5 when we won our first title under Mr Clough and for whom (don't hurt me for saying this) the rivalry with Forest is fun, rather than bitter. If anything, the rivalry annoys me because I think it has held both clubs back at times.

Personally, I cannot wait for the day that the Brian Clough Trophy is a permanent premiership fixture.

THAT is nothing less than what Brian Clough deserves.

 

14 hours ago, BOB BIGGS said:

It's just an age thing. If you were lucky enough to be a Rams fan when Clough and Taylor were here, you were able to witness achievements that were way beyond expectations. Not only did we win trophies but the way we played was a joy to watch. The basis of that team then went on to win in 1974/75 League, with even more flair and style. Then it went pear shaped for a while.

Since then, we've had some good times and some less good. It would be difficult for the younger folks on here to appreciate just how good it was for those of us who travelled the country from 1968 to 1976. Just take it from me that it was different class to most of what followed.

All are entitled to an opinion about everything. Many supporters found Clough hard to like even through those successful years. I'm just grateful to him and Peter Taylor for bringing something to the Club that was extraordinary. I don't know whether he was more Derby than Forest although I have my [slightly emotional] views on that. The fact that they went on to repeat their success elsewhere was further testament to their managerial partnership and skills. They probably wouldn't last 5 minutes now in the new world of football but that's not the point.

Brian Clough was great for Derby and its fans in and around the 70s. Some of those managers who followed..well, really

Well said! I worshipped Brian Clough. I still get a shiver up my spine at the table graphic in The Damned United as 'Derby Co' shoot up the league tables.

I was too young to really understand just how magical it must have been for those who'd seen years of struggle. But, as an Australian kid, Clough's teams were the reason football got under my skin.

I might even have cried when he was sacked (I was only 7 or 8 in my defence and, of my two great sporting loves, Derby were the successful one). I might even have chucked a tanti at the board for not giving him whatever he wanted. He won us our first title for crying out loud!!! He WAS Derby County for me at that age.

So, for me, I still worshipped him while he was at Forest. I was sad that we let him go...and that they got the history which should've been ours as a result of our stupidity...but I loved that Mr Clough was still the genius. I was even sadder when we visited the bankruptcy courts. And division 3. But it was still the board I blamed, not Clough. Having said that, I fully understand how anyone born after our Clough era would've seen him as Forest...and probably as a traitor...until he (a) left Forest and (b) mellowed in retirement. Let's face it: they were good...we weren't...and Clough was nothing if not an arrogant so-and-so who knew how to rub others' noses in it.

Sigh...I loved that stuff when he was our so-and-so...

After he retired though - and I was an adult who spent some real time in England - Clough aged and mellowed. The first thought I have whenever someone compares his love for Derby with his love for Forest is a sad one. One of his last interviews, he looked and sounded so sad as he said how much he regretted how hard both of his former clubs were doing. 

That, more than anything else, is why I want both of us back where we belong. Where we both should be had we not wasted his legacy.

But I think Clough actually answered the question himself after his retirement.

Derby had a special place in his heart for many reasons. We were the club who gave him his chance. He won his first title at Derby. Derby was the pure footballing town that Nottingham never was. Despite how it ended, he knew that Derby fans dared him and loved how he wanted his teams to play.

I suspect we were, for Clough, the pure first footballing love.

But Forest was where he spent 18 years and proved his genius. Forest no doubt benefitted from Clough's lessons at Derby. But, being a larger city and less single-minded and passionate about their club, I suspect that Clough knew, while his achievements made him a king in Nottingham, they would've made him God in Derby had he stayed.

So...after all that...same but different.

[G STAR RAM]

6 hours ago, EssendonRam said:

I both love and hate this argument. I love it because it shows how important he still is to both clubs; I hate it because it almost always degenerates into a tish-fight instead of respecting the greatest manager either club has ever, or will ever, have.

Bearing in mind, I am an Australian who was 5 when we won our first title under Mr Clough and for whom (don't hurt me for saying this) the rivalry with Forest is fun, rather than bitter. If anything, the rivalry annoys me because I think it has held both clubs back at times.

Personally, I cannot wait for the day that the Brian Clough Trophy is a permanent premiership fixture.

THAT is nothing less than what Brian Clough deserves.

 

Well said! I worshipped Brian Clough. I still get a shiver up my spine at the table graphic in The Damned United as 'Derby Co' shoot up the league tables.

I was too young to really understand just how magical it must have been for those who'd seen years of struggle. But, as an Australian kid, Clough's teams were the reason football got under my skin.

I might even have cried when he was sacked (I was only 7 or 8 in my defence and, of my two great sporting loves, Derby were the successful one). I might even have chucked a tanti at the board for not giving him whatever he wanted. He won us our first title for crying out loud!!! He WAS Derby County for me at that age.

So, for me, I still worshipped him while he was at Forest. I was sad that we let him go...and that they got the history which should've been ours as a result of our stupidity...but I loved that Mr Clough was still the genius. I was even sadder when we visited the bankruptcy courts. And division 3. But it was still the board I blamed, not Clough. Having said that, I fully understand how anyone born after our Clough era would've seen him as Forest...and probably as a traitor...until he (a) left Forest and (b) mellowed in retirement. Let's face it: they were good...we weren't...and Clough was nothing if not an arrogant so-and-so who knew how to rub others' noses in it.

Sigh...I loved that stuff when he was our so-and-so...

After he retired though - and I was an adult who spent some real time in England - Clough aged and mellowed. The first thought I have whenever someone compares his love for Derby with his love for Forest is a sad one. One of his last interviews, he looked and sounded so sad as he said how much he regretted how hard both of his former clubs were doing. 

That, more than anything else, is why I want both of us back where we belong. Where we both should be had we not wasted his legacy.

But I think Clough actually answered the question himself after his retirement.

Derby had a special place in his heart for many reasons. We were the club who gave him his chance. He won his first title at Derby. Derby was the pure footballing town that Nottingham never was. Despite how it ended, he knew that Derby fans dared him and loved how he wanted his teams to play.

I suspect we were, for Clough, the pure first footballing love.

But Forest was where he spent 18 years and proved his genius. Forest no doubt benefitted from Clough's lessons at Derby. But, being a larger city and less single-minded and passionate about their club, I suspect that Clough knew, while his achievements made him a king in Nottingham, they would've made him God in Derby had he stayed.

So...after all that...same but different.

Bit before my time but:-

1 - Did he not walk out on DCFC rather than being sacked?

2 - Wasn't it Hartlepool that gave him his chance in management?

[CLOUGH1971-72]

7 hours ago, EssendonRam said:

I both love and hate this argument. I love it because it shows how important he still is to both clubs; I hate it because it almost always degenerates into a tish-fight instead of respecting the greatest manager either club has ever, or will ever, have.

Bearing in mind, I am an Australian who was 5 when we won our first title under Mr Clough and for whom (don't hurt me for saying this) the rivalry with Forest is fun, rather than bitter. If anything, the rivalry annoys me because I think it has held both clubs back at times.

Personally, I cannot wait for the day that the Brian Clough Trophy is a permanent premiership fixture.

THAT is nothing less than what Brian Clough deserves.

 

Well said! I worshipped Brian Clough. I still get a shiver up my spine at the table graphic in The Damned United as 'Derby Co' shoot up the league tables.

I was too young to really understand just how magical it must have been for those who'd seen years of struggle. But, as an Australian kid, Clough's teams were the reason football got under my skin.

I might even have cried when he was sacked (I was only 7 or 8 in my defence and, of my two great sporting loves, Derby were the successful one). I might even have chucked a tanti at the board for not giving him whatever he wanted. He won us our first title for crying out loud!!! He WAS Derby County for me at that age.

So, for me, I still worshipped him while he was at Forest. I was sad that we let him go...and that they got the history which should've been ours as a result of our stupidity...but I loved that Mr Clough was still the genius. I was even sadder when we visited the bankruptcy courts. And division 3. But it was still the board I blamed, not Clough. Having said that, I fully understand how anyone born after our Clough era would've seen him as Forest...and probably as a traitor...until he (a) left Forest and (b) mellowed in retirement. Let's face it: they were good...we weren't...and Clough was nothing if not an arrogant so-and-so who knew how to rub others' noses in it.

Sigh...I loved that stuff when he was our so-and-so...

After he retired though - and I was an adult who spent some real time in England - Clough aged and mellowed. The first thought I have whenever someone compares his love for Derby with his love for Forest is a sad one. One of his last interviews, he looked and sounded so sad as he said how much he regretted how hard both of his former clubs were doing. 

That, more than anything else, is why I want both of us back where we belong. Where we both should be had we not wasted his legacy.

But I think Clough actually answered the question himself after his retirement.

Derby had a special place in his heart for many reasons. We were the club who gave him his chance. He won his first title at Derby. Derby was the pure footballing town that Nottingham never was. Despite how it ended, he knew that Derby fans dared him and loved how he wanted his teams to play.

I suspect we were, for Clough, the pure first footballing love.

But Forest was where he spent 18 years and proved his genius. Forest no doubt benefitted from Clough's lessons at Derby. But, being a larger city and less single-minded and passionate about their club, I suspect that Clough knew, while his achievements made him a king in Nottingham, they would've made him God in Derby had he stayed.

So...after all that...same but different.

That's a great post mate. Spot on. Some of these guys saying they disliked Brian clough should be ashamed 

[Mostyn6]

1 hour ago, CLOUGH1971-72 said:

That's a great post mate. Spot on. Some of these guys saying they disliked Brian clough should be ashamed 

how dare you decide who should and shouldn't be ashamed and for what reason.

In my life time, Clough was Forest and Forest only. 

What happened before that is irrelevant! 

Should I also like Jimmy Saville and Gary Glitter for what they did before I was alive?

Bad comparisons but the simile is there.

[CLOUGH1971-72]

On 07/12/2016 at 09:21, Mostyn6 said:

I think your mind is a bit warped. Derby County isn't special because of winning the league. Those titles are way in the past and didn't stop I'd plummeting to the lows of the third division, where we were when i became a Derby fan. 

Brian Clough didn't have Derby at heart, he had his wallet at heart. He turned his back on Derby and went to our rivals. Whilst we were struggling, he was living it up down the A52. 

His achievements were good, granted, but that's not too say we'd never have got promoted without him.

Winning the league, either under him or Mackay is off no consequence now the premier league exists and does us no favours and provides no advantage.

All it provides is misty eyed nostalgia for old boys wishing they were young again.

Clough's legacy for Derby was financial ruin and irregularities. His achievements have been matched by Cox, Smith and Davies in getting Derby promoted, with perhaps Davies' achievement being more unexpected. 

The money Clough spent on making Derby champions ruined us, but made his achievements easier. 

- in what way is my mind warped? Am I the poster who bitterly down plays the role of Derby county's greatest hero/all time legend? And probably in most people's top 3 greatest managers Ever. I think he's clearly the greatest manager of all times and I don't think there's much argument about it. Brian Clough is footballs version of Muhammad Ali. 

- Derby county is special because it's won a league championship in one of the strongest eras ever! The early 70s had Derby Leeds Liverpool Man City and man united who were all time great club sides, all strong at the same time . Not many clubs in England won the league title in such dramatic fashion and with such great players like Todd and McFarland.

- why would winning the league title stop any club getting relegated? Manchester United won the European cup 10 years after the Munich plane crash and that was what made them a special club but they still got relegated in 73. 

- the reason Derby got relagated to the 3rd division was mismanagement from directors and memebers of the board. Something that's happened to the club for large parts of the last 50 years. 

- so Brian clough didn't have Derby at heart? Yet in several interviews on YouTube, newspaper articles and his 2 autobiographys said derby was his biggest regret in his life was leaving Derby. He also lived in Derby for 50 years and must have had plenty of chances to leave the city but didn't. The man use to run the club from top to bottom and did things like sweeping the terraces and cleared snow off the pitch.

- Brian clough didn't turn his back on Derby county. He was forced out by people like Sam longson. Clough was stopped running the club how he wanted to. Sam longson cost us the chance to win 2 European cups like forest did. 

- you say (his achievements were good, granted). Dear oh dear mostyn6 you sound seriously bitter. Does it hurt you to say that?

- the state that we were in when he took over was dire my friend. Some of the players were part time and use to play cricket instead of pre season games lol. I can't see any manager in derby county's history repeating Clough feats. They haven't so far. 

- I didn't ever say winning the league under Clough or Makay now gave us any favours or advantage. Like most of your comments in your post I'm afraid what you say has no real meaning or foundation. 

-  even comparing cox Davis and smiths achievements to Brian Cloughs makes you sound pathetic really. You've really showed yourself you to be uninformed about the football club you support. Embarrassing really. 

- the money Clough spent at Derby was mainly on bargain buys like his first signing john o'hare and his second signing Roy McFarland also Alan Hinton, McGovern, gemmill, carlin, roger Davis and john robson to name a few. The only big money he spent was on David McKay, Colin Todd and David Nash. Not bad deals really were they? Also Todd and nish were signed after Derby had already had success so clough earned the money he spent. He did the same at forest. Spent big money after he'd already had success. 

- to say cloughs legacy at Derby was financial ruin really somes up your comments. Derby county were in the best shape on and off the pitch we have ever been in! We were set to dominate like Liverpool went on to do. When Clough left the average age of the side was 23. Perfect. They were 2nd in the league when he left. 

 

 

[TelTheRam]

On 12/6/2016 at 19:08, bigbadbob said:

Had a chat with him once about it. Was obviously very proud of his achievements with forest but did express regret it wasn't with Derby but what happened happened so couldn't do owt about it. Derby had very special place in his heart. He knew I was a Derby fan though so maybe told me what I wanted to hear

Can't imagine he ever told anyone just what they wanted to hear.

[EssendonRam]

7 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

Bit before my time but:-

1 - Did he not walk out on DCFC rather than being sacked?

2 - Wasn't it Hartlepool that gave him his chance in management?

1. Apparently. My recollection at the time was that both sides said the other did the deed. Bearing in mind I turned 8 in 1974 and you literally could only follow English football in Australia back then via a 5-minute segment on World of Sport on Sunday mornings and MOTD a week later, I might remember it wrongly but my belief for years was that (a) Clough demanded more autonomy; (b) Longman refused; (c) Clough threatened to quit; (d) Longman threatened to sack him first; and (e) Clough walked out.

I know that many far older, far wiser and far closer fans have always maintained that Clough walked and that Longman essentially was wronged....but I was just a kid who worshipped Clough...

2. Yes. Hartlepool did give him his first managerial appointment (although I think you'll find they were Hartlepools then) and appointed Taylor as his assistant. But Derby plucked him and gave him the platform, and support, to prove himself. Derby were an innovative, modernising club in that era in many ways.

I think we were the first club, or one of the first few, to switch from the traditional club crest and embrace a marketing logo; the stylised Ram was considered quite radical, as was the appointment of such a brash, young and inexperienced manager.  

 

    

[EssendonRam]

7 hours ago, CLOUGH1971-72 said:

That's a great post mate. Spot on. Some of these guys saying they disliked Brian clough should be ashamed 

Thanks but, as I said, I can understand why they, as kids, would've seen Clough as the enemy. His Forest teams rubbed our noses in it for so many years.

[Chester40]

Blimey...This thread has become bitter since I last checked in!!

In the spirit of levity...I wanted to post something but can't. So can someone with IT skills post a picture of Jack Cassidy in Columbo..and compare? ..is it just me or is Peter Taylor in disguise??

 

 

[CLOUGH1971-72]

33 minutes ago, Chester40 said:

Blimey...This thread has become bitter since I last checked in!!

In the spirit of levity...I wanted to post something but can't. So can someone with IT skills post a picture of Jack Cassidy in Columbo..and compare? ..is it just me or is Peter Taylor in disguise??

 

 

It's turned bitter since mostyn6 posted that bitter post that was factually incorrect 

[Chester40]

12 minutes ago, CLOUGH1971-72 said:

It's turned bitter since mostyn6 posted that bitter post that was factually incorrect 

I think he just provides a different narrative or perspective...an alternate way of looking at things. 

Personally I don't see it as factually incorrect...except comparing his achievements with Cox...Davies...a stretch toooo far for me.

[davenportram]

8 hours ago, Mostyn6 said:

how dare you decide who should and shouldn't be ashamed and for what reason.

In my life time, Clough was Forest and Forest only. 

What happened before that is irrelevant! 

Should I also like Jimmy Saville and Gary Glitter for what they did before I was alive?

Bad comparisons but the simile is there.

You are making a statement about how you perceive him. You see him as A Forest man.

 

What the thread is about is whether he himself liked us more than Forest. In this context the time he spent with us is not irrelevant it is vital.

[Rammed79]

I don't think he favoured either had great times with both. After he retired where was he spotted watching most of his games Derby? Forest? Neither it was Burton where Nigel was so I guess he was just a football fan 

[davenportram]

16 minutes ago, Ram79 said:

I don't think he favoured either had great times with both. After he retired where was he spotted watching most of his games Derby? Forest? Neither it was Burton where Nigel was so I guess he was just a football fan 

And a family man

[Mostyn6]

49 minutes ago, CLOUGH1971-72 said:

It's turned bitter since mostyn6 posted that bitter post that was factually incorrect 

no bitterness on my part duck. 

You can't spiel off your rose-tinted memories as fact and when someone who wasn't alive at the time gives a counter opinion react by sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "la la la, I'm not listening!".

Clough turned his back on Derby. He did that for personal gain. END OF....