The Hughes Debate

[jagerbob]

Just like Chris Martin he has quality and can do some things well, but equally lacks certain skills, this is the reason he hasnt left us already. Really needs to add goals to his game, some shooting boots, and the ability to play a longer pass. Otherwise he should sod off to spain where ticky tacky is all the rage.

 

[eddie]

We will never really know how good Will Hughes is until he plays in a side with better players who think on the same wavelength.

[loughboroughRAM]

I think some people have missed the point I was trying to make whilst others haven't....

All I was trying to point out was that whilst scoring goals is the most important thing in football (closely followed by keeping them out), it's not Will's role to do this. He offers something totally different - he dictates tempo, he picks up the ball and distributes it - he makes the passes that lead to the assists. I chose to compare to Xavi and Iniesta because it kind of proves that you don't need to bang in 10+ goals a season to be considered a great and you don't need to lead the assists charts either. They were considered one of the most creative duos of all time and were often cited as being the heartbeat of that Barca team simply by doing what they did best, which as the stats showed - wasn't all about goals, it was about how they were the most important of cogs in the most well oiled of machines. 

That was the point I was making. Hughes doesn't need goals to be a top, top player (although it obviously wouldn't hurt) - he just needs to improve the player he already is without trying to become a player that he isn't. Leave the goal scoring to the attackers and leave the pulling of strings to Will.

[Comrade 86]

Non-debate. The lad's got oodles of class and is the heartbeat of the team when he'son his game.

[VulcanRam]

1 hour ago, eddie said:

We will never really know how good Will Hughes is until he plays in a side with better players who think on the same wavelength.

Out of interest, which club(s) or level of club in the current climate would fit that description?

[Alph]

5 hours ago, McLovin said:

I understand what you're saying but I think it's more of a case that Iniesta makes it easier for his teammates rather than his teammate's making it easier for him. He's not a one man team as such but having him on the field makes all the barca players improve. One example was Man city v Barcelona at the etihad a few weeks ago. Barcelona mentally collapsed in the second half and couldn't keep their ball to save their lives and the same happened in their last game against real sociedad. If they had Iniesta they wouldn't have collapsed like they did in both games in my opinion. Barcelona have looked very,very ordinary without Iniesta in recent weeks to put in lightly. Iniesta is a very special player indeed. People forget that he suffered from depression too a few years ago so to come back from something like that and to continue to put in high level consistent performances shows how truly great he is. 

It goes both ways. For Iniesta to reach that level he's had to earn his place. BUT, he can only do the things he does if teammates read him quickly enough. If they keep possession, if they gain territory. Which is my point that it is easier for him to perform to his best than it would be for him in a lesser team.

The question was "is it easier to assist goals for Barcelona than Derby". And yes it is. It's hugely difficult to be good enough for Barcelona but if you play in that team with those players then yes of course. No team in the world can promise more possession, territory or chances. 

The same applies to scoring goals. Is it easier to score for Barca than Derby? Of course. Messi is the greatest player ever imo but if he was playing for Derby at the start of the season he would find it far more difficult. 

Every player is a slave to the team to some extent. 

It doesn't for one minute mean that Hughes is better. It was just worth mentioning. The OP was all about context. 

People criticise Hughes for his assists etc. But Iniesta, Xavi, Yaya, Silva... some of the most creative players in England and Spain of recent years do not directly assist. And it's no easier for Hughes. He may be on an individual level better than his opponent. But these elite players in elite teams are both individually and collectively better than almost every opponent. Yet they don't get the stats that people use against Hughes. Silva is a winger so what would they say about him? 

Truth is players like Hughes bring out the best in others. Their selfless game makes life so much easier for others. They lack the killer instinct because it's their instinct to allow others to shine. 

You can't go against instincts just because you're 15 yards from goal. You can't suddenly change the player you are. It'd be like training Bent to stop being a poacher. You'd just lose part of what they're good at even if you did change them.

I'd struggle to name where imo he needs to improve. I think that's because this level is a bit too easy for him. I'd like to see if a higher level would expose any weakness. 

But I'd hope he goes to a team that needs him. Him going to Burnley would be about as much use as Mick McCarthy becoming a coach under Guardiola

[Bris Vegas]

In any 433 you usually have a holding midfielder, a player who links the play in terms of defence to attack, and then one who is more attack-minded and can chip in with goals.

Will is very much the Iniesta of said system in that he links the play. His job IMO is far more important and more difficult to perfect than directly scoring or assisting goals, therefore I don't care that he barely scores.

In Johnson (DM), Hughes (link) and Butterfield (goal threat) we have a nice balance there. Just like when we had Thorne (DM), Hughes (link) and Bryson/Hendrick (goal threat).

Replacing Hughes would be extremely difficult, because there are not many others in the Championship who have the ability or PL players within our budget who can do the same job with such quality.

Hughes IMO is up there with the best linking midfielders outside the PL. Don't judge him on what he isn't, judge him on what type of player he really is and that's a linking midfielder.

Incidentally, I felt Simon Dawkins was also one of the best 'linking players' outside the PL too. Yet, those that don't properly understand football constantly berated him for not directly scoring or assisting goals.

You can have superb strikers who don't actually score much, and superb defenders who aren't the best in the tackle. Understand what players' strengths are (Martin's hold-up and linking play, Will's linking play, Keogh's distribution from the back etc.) and how they fit into the team's system, and then judge them on that. 

[Daz_The_Ram]

14 hours ago, Ellafella said:

I think you have made a good point about different standards of competition Sir; that said, I think you have also been a bit too dismissive of numbers and statistics. Whether we like it or not, statistics and numbers are a large part of modern football...nay every part of life because they provide evidence of what we are thinking. 

{Cue Angry...}

I know that this is the case mate ... however, it bloody annoys me good and proper.

[eddie]

8 hours ago, VulcanRam said:

Out of interest, which club(s) or level of club in the current climate would fit that description?

Ideally a team like Tottenham, but I reckon he would thrive with Southampton.

[Sparkle]

54 minutes ago, eddie said:

Ideally a team like Tottenham, but I reckon he would thrive with Southampton.

And after a season they sell him for £30 million ! 

[ronnieronalde]

Haven't read all of the thread so maybe someone has already covered this.

The club have got to do everything they can to keep hold of Will, if that means making him highest paid player in the squad then get it offered. If then Will turns it down it's a different story but it should be Will's decision. The club/fanbase couldn't be happy if he left and they hadn't at least knocked his socks off with an offer.

He's a premier league player in everything but the club, has been for the last 4 seasons.

I wouldn't be surprised to see him a call up under Southgate soon. I know we've (England) got a lot of very good quality in front of him in midfield but in my opinion Will is a better player than Ross Barkley and he's less of a risk than Jack Wilshere and both of those are there or there abouts. I think under Southgate we'll see a clear path from the 21's up and Will is just about ready for his first taste.

The fact he's based so close to St George's it would be a real shame if he doesn't get a "come and a have a look around and get used to the set up" call for the Germany game.

Don't lose this lad until HE wants to go. He's THAT good.

[JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta]

Southgate will have seen enough of him in the U21's to have a good idea of what he is capable of and will likely be of the opinion that is the best place for him. I would think it is nigh on impossible that he would get called up at this point in his career.

[jagerbob]

For all his quality, i have seen in many games that doesnt suit him, or being asked to play in a team which doesnt suit him. Then he looks pretty ordinary. if however he looks at his u21 peers from the last few years and sees how well Kane and the rest are doing..... even Lingaard gets England call ups due to being at a big club, then Will has to ask himself if he be better off leaving us.

As i said before, a bit like martin he is good technically, has great vision, balance and weight and pin point accuracy of short passing.

he could do with being bigger stronger, able to spray long passes and get a decent shot on him. He also is not much use in set pieces or corners, because from what i have seen, when he has had thee duties he cant generate any pace on the ball.

[MuespachRam]

1 hour ago, ronnieronalde said:

Haven't read all of the thread so maybe someone has already covered this.

The club have got to do everything they can to keep hold of Will, if that means making him highest paid player in the squad then get it offered. If then Will turns it down it's a different story but it should be Will's decision. The club/fanbase couldn't be happy if he left and they hadn't at least knocked his socks off with an offer.

He's a premier league player in everything but the club, has been for the last 4 seasons.

I wouldn't be surprised to see him a call up under Southgate soon. I know we've (England) got a lot of very good quality in front of him in midfield but in my opinion Will is a better player than Ross Barkley and he's less of a risk than Jack Wilshere and both of those are there or there abouts. I think under Southgate we'll see a clear path from the 21's up and Will is just about ready for his first taste.

The fact he's based so close to St George's it would be a real shame if he doesn't get a "come and a have a look around and get used to the set up" call for the Germany game.

Don't lose this lad until HE wants to go. He's THAT good.

Exactly that...

he is the best player we have had at the club for 40 years and we need to offer him whatever we can to keep him. 

To be honest I wouldn't be sad if he did leave, I really want him to do well and play at the top (preferably with us but that's not going to happen) and he has stayed around far too long than was good for his career as it is already. I am sure he has had a lot of very good offers that he has turned down from top division clubs. 

 

 

[Bridgford Ram]

I can see both sides to this argument.  He is a great player but in my opinion needs to start impacting games either with goals / assists or taking the game by a scruff of the neck.

[Daz_The_Ram]

24 minutes ago, MuespachRam said:

he is the best player we have had at the club for 40 years

Just a tiny, tinsy, winsy wee bit over the top to say the very least.

[bcnram]

22 minutes ago, Daz_The_Ram said:

Just a tiny, tinsy, winsy wee bit over the top to say the very least.

Who have you seen who is better? Eranio would be close but beyond that?

[Daz_The_Ram]

10 minutes ago, bcnram said:

Who have you seen who is better? Eranio would be close but beyond that?

A proven Italian international, and umpteen times European Cup winner 'comes close' to Hughes? I've heard it all now.

Do me a favour mate. Cloud cuckoo land

He's not even the best, most complete player in the current squad.

Seriously, have you been sniffing glue?
 

I'm all for a bit of healthy debate and banter about the strengths and weaknesses of the lad, but to call him the best player the club has seen in four decades is completely and utterly ludicrous.

[bcnram]

3 minutes ago, Daz_The_Ram said:

A proven Italian international, and umpteen times European Cup winner 'comes close' to Hughes? I've heard it all now.

Do me a favour mate. Cloud cuckoo land

He's not even the best, most complete player in the current squad.

Seriously, have you been sniffing glue?

The level of your comment maybe says a lot about you kid.

Eranio was a fabulous player but umpteen times European cup winner?

Now then young man, back to my question. Who have you seen who you consider to have been better? Maybe also chuck in those in the current squad eh?

[Daz_The_Ram]

5 minutes ago, bcnram said:

The level of your comment maybe says a lot about you kid.

Eranio was a fabulous player but umpteen times European cup winner?

Now then young man, back to my question. Who have you seen who you consider to have been better? Maybe also chuck in those in the current squad eh?

You are being utterly ridiculous. Furthermore, do not presume to condescend me.

Check the record books on Eranio and his medals, please, I invite you.

Someone help me over here please? I'm losing the will to live.