The Hughes Debate

[loughboroughRAM]

Been a lot of talk about Hughes lately with some claiming that he doesn't score/assist enough to be worth the amount others claim he is. This got me thinking, of all the great midfielders who would I liken him to the most? My immediate reaction was that he could be likened to Iniesta and Xavi - two of the best CMs and also possibly one of the best CM partnerships of a generation when Barca were in their prime a few years back. This led me to look at their respective stats to see how they compare and it came as little surprise that they were hardly earth shattering;

                       G              A

Iniesta       1 in 11       1 in 7      (406 apps) https://www.statbunker.com/players/getPlayerStats?player_id=17798

Xavi            1 in 8        1 in 7      (428 apps) https://www.statbunker.com/players/getPlayerStats?player_id=4813

Hughes     1 in 19      1 in 8       (111 apps) https://www.whoscored.com/Players/108638/History/Will-Hughes

(All stats rounded up to nearest whole number)

Looking at these figures highlights that Hughes' contribution to Derby is not a million miles off Xavi and Iniesta when looking purely at goals and assists, and he is still a fair number of years off his peak which needs to be taken into consideration. Xavi and Iniesta have not only peaked, but they peaked as part of one of the best teams ever.

I can't imagine many people ever complained that those two didn't score or assist enough - so why do we? Just like Xavi and Iniesta, Will is integral to how we play and without him we are much worse off. Yeah it would be nice if he did score and assist more, but who cares? That will come as he develops, for now lets just appreciate his genius.

[cannable]

I have to agree; I'm not bothered about goals and assists.

What a want to see is him carrying the ball from deep more and making more of those mercurial dribbles in and around the opposition box. That'll be an improvement for me.

[Angry Ram]

22 minutes ago, loughboroughRAM said:

Been a lot of talk about Hughes lately with some claiming that he doesn't score/assist enough to be worth the amount others claim he is. This got me thinking, of all the great midfielders who would I liken him to the most? My immediate reaction was that he could be likened to Iniesta and Xavi - two of the best CMs and also possibly one of the best CM partnerships of a generation when Barca were in their prime a few years back. This led me to look at their respective stats to see how they compare and it came as little surprise that they were hardly earth shattering;

                       G              A

Iniesta       1 in 11       1 in 7      (406 apps) https://www.statbunker.com/players/getPlayerStats?player_id=17798

Xavi            1 in 8        1 in 7      (428 apps) https://www.statbunker.com/players/getPlayerStats?player_id=4813

Hughes     1 in 19      1 in 8       (111 apps) https://www.whoscored.com/Players/108638/History/Will-Hughes

(All stats rounded up to nearest whole number)

Looking at these figures highlights that Hughes' contribution to Derby is not a million miles off Xavi and Iniesta when looking purely at goals and assists, and he is still a fair number of years off his peak which needs to be taken into consideration. Xavi and Iniesta have not only peaked, but they peaked as part of one of the best teams ever.

I can't imagine many people ever complained that those two didn't score or assist enough - so why do we? Just like Xavi and Iniesta, Will is integral to how we play and without him we are much worse off. Yeah it would be nice if he did score and assist more, but who cares? That will come as he develops, for now lets just appreciate his genius.

Devils advocate..

Dont Iniesta and Xavi play in a higher league.. Hughes plays in a pub league compared so should not the expectation of goals be greater by default?

What would their stats be playing in The Championship? Who knows.

[Joe.]

I can see where you're coming from, and I'm not that bothered about Hughes not being a massive goal scorer.

But it's difficult to compare to Barcelona when they have a front 3 that are always going to average probably 60 goals between them.

You could argue if you have that you don't need your midfielder to score goals, it's perhaps more necessary at our level that midfielder contribute when you don't have as reliable players at the front (ie start of this season?)

[Carl Sagan]

24 minutes ago, loughboroughRAM said:

 

                       G              A

Iniesta       1 in 11       1 in 7      (406 apps) https://www.statbunker.com/players/getPlayerStats?player_id=17798

Xavi            1 in 8        1 in 7      (428 apps) https://www.statbunker.com/players/getPlayerStats?player_id=4813

Hughes     1 in 19      1 in 8       (111 apps) https://www.whoscored.com/Players/108638/History/Will-Hughes

(All stats rounded up to nearest whole number)

Looking at these figures highlights that Hughes' contribution to Derby is not a million miles off Xavi and Iniesta when looking purely at goals and assists...

 

Looking at these figures highlights to me (and would to Will) that he needs to double his goalscoring. He's an incredible talent with tremendous workrate both on the field and in training, but neither Xavi nor Iniesta is known for scoring goals yet both are twice as prolific as our Will.

That said, he was unexpectedly unlucky with that header the other day when the rebound fell to Ince. Good effort, young man.

[toddy]

Unfortunately Barca have a front 3 that clock 100 goals a season.

We like most other clubs rely on midfielders that can add to the goals tally.

Hughes is a great midfielder - but at championship level, comparing him to two of the best midfielders in the 10 years is soft.

[JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta]

It is his composure that sets him apart at this level. There are a lot of big, strong and quick players in the Championship but they lack the speed of thought of a player like Hughes.

[Parsnip]

10 minutes ago, Angry Ram said:

Hughes plays in a pub league compared

Disagree with that - half the teams in la liga are closer to championship level than premiership.

Hughes does need to add goals to his games though - and he will.

[loughboroughRAM]

I guess the point I was trying to make was that Xavi and Inestia both offered more than just goals and assists. Will has many years (hopefully) ahead of him to add more goals to his game, we've seen that he is capable of moments of sublime skill (goal v Brighton in play offs, assist for Bent v Wolves) but for now theres more important things for him to be doing

[Daz_The_Ram]

4 minutes ago, toddy said:

Unfortunately Barca have a front 3 that clock 100 goals a season.

We like most other clubs rely on midfielders that can add to the goals tally.

Hughes is a great midfielder - but at championship level, comparing him to two of the best midfielders in the 10 years is soft.

What this man said.

My views on this sort of thing are well known on here. Blindly quoting numbers and statistics tells me nothing about football.
By that sort of reckoning, the top scorer in the Belgian league is as useful a centre forward as either Costa or Aguero...utter nonsense.

Xavi and Inieista are two of the greats of their generation. Lets calm down a bit about Hughes eh? He isn't anywhere near the finished article in the Championship yet.

Levels. 

[ramsbottom]

never complained about the fact he doesn't assist or score enough, cus he's not that type of player.  He's not a winger like Ince & he's not an attacking midfielder who'll bust a lung to get beyond the last man like Bryson was a couple of seasons ago.  He is, like you say in the Xavi mold that keeps possession ticking over and is always offering an option.  I know I sound like a broken record, but if he had the stats of Deli Ali one of the top six would've paid £25-£30m for him.  The fact that he doesn't score or assist means that we haven't sold him yet...

[Daz_The_Ram]

3 minutes ago, loughboroughRAM said:

I guess the point I was trying to make was that Xavi and Inestia both offered more than just goals and assists. Will has many years (hopefully) ahead of him to add more goals to his game, we've seen that he is capable of moments of sublime skill (goal v Brighton in play offs, assist for Bent v Wolves) but for now theres more important things for him to be doing

Midfielders are the heartbeat, the engine room of the team. I EXPECT an all round game, this is pretty much what I've been saying the whole time.

[uttoxram75]

All depends on what type of football you want to see.

I enjoy seeing Will linking up, moving the ball intelligently, probing, looking for that gap or spottin a defender slightly out of position...its hard to play against knowing he has the ability to see a pass before you even know there's any danger. Sometimes our own players don't gamble enough and make runs early...if the ball is going towards Will you should run into space immediately knowing he will place it on your toe somehow.

Next match, count how many times Will is fouled, its the only way to stop him sometimes. Maybe he'd flourish in the Prem because of the extra protection he'd get. Hopefully that will be with Derby.

I don't think the OP was comparing him directly with Xavi and Iniesta, more the style of play rather than the individuals.

If you want to play hoof ball then Will is surplus to requirements.

[ollycutts1982]

I love Xavi and Iniesta but with regards to Will playing in a lower league, both these players played with Messi so giving Messi the ball on half way an watching him take on 7 players and scoring still counts as an assist may skew the data. Taking nothing away from those two players as they are without doubt 2 of the best. Unfair comparison in my mind, I always prefer to look at chances created, put Messi/Neymar and Suarez infront of any player and they have a better chance of getting an assist than someone playing with Ince/Bent and Russell. But isn't it nice to have a player who we can compare to such players. Will has a great career infront of him in the PL and hopefully with us. I believe he would be better suited to the PL than the championship. 

[Sexydadbod]

The difference is that xavi and intiesta were specifically told not to get forward too much  deliberately because they needed to form triangles and control possession in midfield  with busquets in midfield. Also it does help when you have the best ever player in your team scoring a lot of goals. When iniesta and xavi were played further up, they scored goals, iniesta particularly scored many important goals including the World Cup final goal that won the Spain the World Cup.

[Sexydadbod]

1 hour ago, Parsnip said:

Disagree with that - half the teams in la liga are closer to championship level than premiership.

Hughes does need to add goals to his games though - and he will.

Nah the lesser teams in Spain are better than the lesser teams in England. It's just the top teams in Spain are of a higher standard which makes the lesser teams look weak

[Lord_Ram]

not concerned about a lack of goals or assists. having a player like hughes creates far more chances. putting hughes in our team creates more overral goals throughout the team. whereas a goalscoring mifielder might get more goals than will, but the whole team will produce less as a result

[Daz_The_Ram]

27 minutes ago, McLovin said:

Nah the lesser teams in Spain are better than the lesser teams in England. It's just the top teams in Spain are of a higher standard which makes the lesser teams look weak

Spot on. This idea that any of the Championship sides would even last five minutes with top flight Spanish outfits is patenetly absurd.

The technical level is miles better out there. it just so happens that Barca, Real and Athletic, are quite simply, the créme de la crime of the continent.

[Sexydadbod]

22 minutes ago, Daz_The_Ram said:

Spot on. This idea that any of the Championship sides would even last five minutes with top flight Spanish outfits is patenetly absurd.

The technical level is miles better out there. it just so happens that Barca, Real and Athletic, are quite simply, the créme de la crime of the continent.

It's ridiculous the technical level out there. Carlo Ancelotti even said that the lesser teams in Spain are the toughest he has had to face because they're ridiculously good at keeping possession when you put pressure on them. The lesser teams over there are comfortable of keeping at least 60% of the possession at times. I dread to think what would happen if Burnley or boro tried to keep that much possession. The reason why sometimes the likes of Barca and Madrid give the lesser teams out there beatings from time to time is because the lesser teams attack no matter what as they aren't scared of the bigger teams knowing that goal difference doesn't matter come the end of the season as it goes down to head-to head records in Spain. Anyway I'm straying off topic a lot here, just thought I'd respond to that somewhat ignorant comment. Back on topic, Hughes has the talent to develop but he must improve the power in his shooting, whilst his accuracy is decent, he needs to do what Butterfield does and shoot even outside the box

[Daz_The_Ram]

7 minutes ago, McLovin said:

It's ridiculous the technical level out there. Carlo Ancelotti even said that the lesser teams in Spain are the toughest he has had to face because they're ridiculously good at keeping possession when you put pressure on them. The lesser teams over there are comfortable of keeping at least 60% of the possession at times. I dread to think what would happen if Burnley or boro tried to keep that much possession. The reason why sometimes the likes of Barca and Madrid give the lesser teams out there beatings from time to time is because the lesser teams attack no matter what as they aren't scared of the bigger teams knowing that goal difference doesn't matter come the end of the season as it goes down to head-to head records in Spain. Anyway I'm straying off topic a lot here, just thought I'd respond to that somewhat ignorant comment. Back on topic, Hughes has the talent to develop but he must improve the power in his shooting, whilst his accuracy is decent, he needs to do what Butterfield does and shoot even outside the box

You're right, my old man used to follow his local side when he lived in Spain, they were in the third/forth tier or thereabouts, and I went to quite a few games with him, the level was exceptionally good I must say. Oh, by the way, the atmosphere was insane too!

As for Hughes, I sound like a broken record I'm sure, but lets remember this ... he is a work in progress. Lets keep it level headed about him, and keep our fingers crossed that he fulfils the promise. I've seen plenty fall away at this crucial stage in their careers