Would these same players be any good with another manager

[TroyDyer]

Failed under Clough (many of them), failed under SM, failed under Clement, Wassall and now Pearson. 

So the answer would appear to be no. We don't have enough winners. Too many players that aren't good enough, stealing a living, or bottle it when the going gets tough. 

A tough manager that will clear out the dross is what we need. Think we all thought NP might be that man. Clearly isn't. 

[Cook1988]

YESSSSSSSSSS

[duncanjwitham]

2 hours ago, toddy said:

Bryson doesn't need to be in 2 places at once, if he and others around him follow there instructions - If we play 4 in midfield or 3 in midfield - I expect a midfielder who is told to support the forward line and to play an attacking midfield role to do that. I expect the holding midfielder to protect the defence when necessary and also expect him to be able to pick out a pass to create play.

I expect forwards to run the channels and create space so they are in a position to collect the pass, I expect the midfielders to be able to pass a ball, I expect the defenders to be able to mark the opposition when necessary, I expect the forwards to convert the chances they get.

What I am expecting too much?

When will those players take responsibility?

 

 

First up, we don't know what players are being told to do, we're guessing based on what we see on the pitch.  Second up, you can't just expect players to be able to do something just because you told them to - players have strengths and weaknesses, and if you are literally telling a player to not do what he is good at, and to do everything he is bad at, that player is not going to play well, and it's not that players fault.  Third up, just because you tell a player to do something, if the game situation doesn't allow him to do it, he's not going to be able to do it - midfielders cannot pass a ball if they have no one to pass to and the ball is sailing 20 yards over their head every time, strikers cannot make runs if there is no one on the ball in range to feed them the ball, midfielders cannot afford to tackle if they are outnumbered and overrun and so on.

[toddy]

20 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

First up, we don't know what players are being told to do, we're guessing based on what we see on the pitch.  Second up, you can't just expect players to be able to do something just because you told them to - players have strengths and weaknesses, and if you are literally telling a player to not do what he is good at, and to do everything he is bad at, that player is not going to play well, and it's not that players fault.  Third up, just because you tell a player to do something, if the game situation doesn't allow him to do it, he's not going to be able to do it - midfielders cannot pass a ball if they have no one to pass to and the ball is sailing 20 yards over their head every time, strikers cannot make runs if there is no one on the ball in range to feed them the ball, midfielders cannot afford to tackle if they are outnumbered and overrun and so on.

The players will have had instructions before they take to the field, it is down to the players to take on board these instructions, if they don't they will be shipped out [Martin].

Asking what player to do what he is not good at, can you give an example?

Lack of ability is not an excuse. After all if they are not good enough they should not be in the team.

The players have to take responsibility once they cross that white line.

[Ramos]

18 hours ago, PodgeyRam said:

I think it is fair to say that history has shown that these players have been better with every manager they've had than Pearson.

2011/2012 under Clough 12th.

2012/2013 under Clough 10th.

2013/2014 under Clough/McClaren 3rd.

2014/2015 under McClaren 8th.

2015/2016 under Clement/Wassall 5th.

Say what you will about the players, but they have played better for our last four managers than they are now.

This is completely ignoring how well they did at other clubs as well.

Our manager is vastly underperforming with the players he has, no way of getting round it and as manager it is his job to get the best out of these players - something he is either incapable of doing or unwilling to do.

I do agree with you, but I'd have to say the squad is far too different to that of 11/12 and possibly 12/13 to make a comparison now. Certainly the last 3 years i'd agree

[europia]

3 hours ago, TroyDyer said:

Failed under Clough (many of them), failed under SM, failed under Clement, Wassall and now Pearson. 

So the answer would appear to be no. We don't have enough winners. Too many players that aren't good enough, stealing a living, or bottle it when the going gets tough. 

A tough manager that will clear out the dross is what we need. Think we all thought NP might be that man. Clearly isn't. 

Agree, but who ever was going to come in and 'clear out the dross' was going to need a bit of time to do it. NP is having to meet player power head on. If he does lose his job, it will perhaps pave the way for the next incumbent.

[duncanjwitham]

1 minute ago, toddy said:

Asking what player to do what he is not good at, can you give an example?

Bryson is the best example - his entire game is about running: offensively he makes great runs off the ball, gets into good positions and scores.  He's neat and tidy on the ball but not spectacular.  Defensively, he's not a tackler, again he's a guy that's better in motion, closing down and harrying the opposition.  By playing him as a holding midfielder, you are literally saying he's not allowed to make any runs, he has to sit in front of the back 4 and stay there (negating his main strength).  And defensively, he can't go and press otherwise he leaves a massive hole in the middle of the team and he's being forced into being the main tackler in the team (which is why he's picking up so many bookings).  So you have a player that is being told to do what he is bad at (sitting, holding his position and tackling) and told not to do what he is good at (make runs off the ball and closing down), with the added bonus that if he ever does what comes naturally to him, he wrecks the team shape completely (by leaving a gaping hole down the middle).

He's not the only player though, this applies to almost every player in the team at the moment.

[brady1993]

3 hours ago, TroyDyer said:

Failed under Clough (many of them), failed under SM, failed under Clement, Wassall and now Pearson. 

So the answer would appear to be no. We don't have enough winners. Too many players that aren't good enough, stealing a living, or bottle it when the going gets tough. 

A tough manager that will clear out the dross is what we need. Think we all thought NP might be that man. Clearly isn't. 

Sure if your only means of success/failure is promotion. Heck in that case nearly every manager we've had has been failure. 

Maybe we do need to improve playing staff but for the last three years under three different managers we've always been in the hunt for promotion. I wouldn't class that as rank failure. 

There is only one failure at the club at the minute, the manager who has single handedly taken a top 6 side and driven them into the relegation zone. 

[TroyDyer]

1 hour ago, europia said:

Agree, but who ever was going to come in and 'clear out the dross' was going to need a bit of time to do it. NP is having to meet player power head on. If he does lose his job, it will perhaps pave the way for the next incumbent.

I agree. Although not getting a defensive midfielder was so inept that I question him based on that.

[TroyDyer]

1 hour ago, brady1993 said:

Sure if your only means of success/failure is promotion. Heck in that case nearly every manager we've had has been failure. 

Maybe we do need to improve playing staff but for the last three years under three different managers we've always been in the hunt for promotion. I wouldn't class that as rank failure. 

There is only one failure at the club at the minute, the manager who has single handedly taken a top 6 side and driven them into the relegation zone. 

Given the goal for the last three years has been promotion, and we have spent the amount of money we have, then yes, they were all failures. Don't forget that for the last two seasons we have literally capitulated at the first sign of pressure.

I believe that to get promoted, you need at least 5 or 6 first team players that would hold their position in the PL. Add 5 or 6 players and you have an 11 that can compete. Bournemouth/Hull/Boro have all done that.

Name one player in our 11 that could hack it in the PL? (Unless you are trying the break the 11 point record)

[brady1993]

1 hour ago, europia said:

Agree, but who ever was going to come in and 'clear out the dross' was going to need a bit of time to do it. NP is having to meet player power head on. If he does lose his job, it will perhaps pave the way for the next incumbent.

He had an entire summer to do this and the financial maneuverability. Di Matteo and Benitez managed to do it fine in trickier circumstances. Yet Pearson only decides late in the window to make any significant dealings.

[cannable]

2 hours ago, toddy said:

The players will have had instructions before they take to the field, it is down to the players to take on board these instructions, if they don't they will be shipped out [Martin].

Asking what player to do what he is not good at, can you give an example?

Lack of ability is not an excuse. After all if they are not good enough they should not be in the team.

The players have to take responsibility once they cross that white line.

Craig Bryson being asked to play holding midfield… 

[brady1993]

4 minutes ago, TroyDyer said:

Given the goal for the last three years has been promotion, and we have spent the amount of money we have, then yes, they were all failures. Don't forget that for the last two seasons we have literally capitulated at the first sign of pressure.

I believe that to get promoted, you need at least 5 or 6 first team players that would hold their position in the PL. Add 5 or 6 players and you have an 11 that can compete. Bournemouth/Hull/Boro have all done that.

Name one player in our 11 that could hack it in the PL? (Unless you are trying the break the 11 point record)

Surely you can't claim that the goal in Mac's first season was promotion ?

I do agree about players to an extent however is sometimes tricky to see which players are capable of making the step up. For example there are plenty of players in Bournemouth's squad you would have had doubts about stepping but have done.

Out of the current squad I'd wager Hughes and Thorne for sure. Bryson if utilised properly. I think there's a decent chance Forsyth would be able to step up. Shackell has already shown himself to be capable at that level. I believe Ince has the potential to step up but needs to start being more consistent. I believe Keogh could if you require a CB who can bring the ball out of defence.  And Carson has shown himself to be a capable keeper at that level. Anya has also shown to be a dependable squad player at that level.

Sure we will need to change some faces but the squad we have available now, is far far better than that which amassed 11 points.

[TroyDyer]

12 minutes ago, brady1993 said:

Surely you can't claim that the goal in Mac's first season was promotion ?

I do agree about players to an extent however is sometimes tricky to see which players are capable of making the step up. For example there are plenty of players in Bournemouth's squad you would have had doubts about stepping but have done.

Out of the current squad I'd wager Hughes and Thorne for sure. Bryson if utilised properly. I think there's a decent chance Forsyth would be able to step up. Shackell has already shown himself to be capable at that level. I believe Ince has the potential to step up but needs to start being more consistent. I believe Keogh could if you require a CB who can bring the ball out of defence.  And Carson has shown himself to be a capable keeper at that level. Anya has also shown to be a dependable squad player at that level.

Sure we will need to change some faces but the squad we have available now, is far far better than that which amassed 11 points.

You lost me when you said Keogh could step up. The bloke can't do it here. 

I meant SM second season, Clement and this year. I know it's early but we have no chance this year. 

[toddy]

1 hour ago, cannable said:

Craig Bryson being asked to play holding midfield… 

When we haven a selection problem and a player is asked to do a job, does the player say, no gaffer I am incapable at doing that pick somebody else for that position, or does he try his best.......

We have a problem with GT being out, fans complain when Hughes was asked to play the holding position, fans complained when Butters was asked to do a GT role. Players have to adapt, or at least try to adapt to a different role, you don't have to be big or strong to play in that role.

[cannable]

17 minutes ago, toddy said:

When we haven a selection problem and a player is asked to do a job, does the player say, no gaffer I am incapable at doing that pick somebody else for that position, or does he try his best.......

We have a problem with GT being out, fans complain when Hughes was asked to play the holding position, fans complained when Butters was asked to do a GT role. Players have to adapt, or at least try to adapt to a different role, you don't have to be big or strong to play in that role.

However a player whose whole game is based on late runs into the box, running beyond a striker and keeping it tidy to play holding midfield…

[toddy]

3 minutes ago, cannable said:

However a player whose whole game is based on late runs into the box, running beyond a striker and keeping it tidy to play holding midfield…

Does not really matter now he is no longer manager here......

[ollycutts1982]

I guess we will no the answer to the OP around 9.40 tonight. 

[Kernow]

The players need to pull their fingers out no matter who takes us forward. It's not solely down to Pearson, it's a joint effort, or should I say lack of it.

I can't see Pearson staying now. His position has become untenable by suspending him.

[brady1993]

5 minutes ago, TroyDyer said:

You lost me when you said Keogh could step up. The bloke can't do it here. 

I meant SM second season, Clement and this year. I know it's early but we have no chance this year. 

What I meant with Keogh is that he has the ability to bring the ball out of defence which was necessary for the style of play we had under McClaren and is rare in CB's at this level and at the lower end of the prem. CB's that can do what he does and are faultless defensively cost a lot of money indeed. Take John Stones at city for example, brilliant at bringing it out from the back and occasionally makes defensive errors but Guardiola thought him crucial for the way he wants to play. That's how I see Keogh IF the style of play is conducive to it.

Your second point is fair enough and I agree any chance of promotion has gone this year in september (which speaks volumes).