What is really going on here?

[ElBeef]

Can we really blame the Management styles over the last few seasons on how the club is moving forward with the players its got?

Clough made a comment that 8 of his team were involved in the 2nd leg of the play offs against Hull. When McClaren took over he used the players to the best of his abilities and galvanised the squad,he then got his head turned and the players lost their way. Step in Clement who changed the system and is was quite evident that the players clearly didn't like the new system but picked up a few wins here and there. Wassall took over and i honestly don't know how he got us to the play offs apart from that second leg which was a great game.

So enter stage right Nigel Pearson. He has divided opinion but i believe was the best candidate for the job, im not his biggest fan though. So he isn't doing what the previous managers did by fitting the players in to suite their style and now forcing his own. Regardless of what he did at Leicester he has been in the game long enough and now developed a back room team of ex players and with Powell a decent manager in his own right. He has been in the job 5 minutes and everyone wants him out!!! even people quoting that he has had enough time to access the squad!!!

So what am I getting at!!???

Isn't it time we looked at the players in all this. Pearson or any of the other managers must have worked hard in training and tactics all week to the find a total abject performance at the weekend. We have players on paper to change games and if i were a fan of another team would be worried about. So how come after 5 games the players can be low on confidence. I can understand that a new manager coming in can change things but good god we are not dealing with children here, 

I think its right that Pearson says it doesn't matter about formations its down to how the players play. In this modern day football surely players crossing that white line can play anywhere on the pitch? I know they develop certain traits that form a clear indicator as to what position best suits their style. Will Hughes has got all the quality/ability in the world and yes is best suited to a more attacking role but surely to develop as a future England player he should be able to play the holding role and not struggle. Pearson has obviously seen something in his players to put them in these positions, he is not deliberately trying to sabotage the team!!!

There is a reason these players are in this league, they are just not good enough to perform consistently at a higher level. Look at Tom Ince, should be tearing this league to pieces but he clearly has confidence issues. It shouldn't matter if he is in the number 10 role or out wide, his quality should shine through but doesn't. Chris Martin....any other player scoring that regularly each season would have attracted interest from Premier league teams. He hasn't due to him being one dimensional and having no pace. Johnny Russell, firm fans favourite, but cannot deliver consistently in the opposing half. Jeff Hendrick....well i leave that one there, I could go on and on. These players have now played under at least 3 different managers and not improved!!

What im trying to say that a player with quality will stand out playing anywhere on the pitch. The players clearly are not good enough, but are still happy to draw a wage. Im not saying they are not trying their hardest week in week out but there is a limit to there abilities, Chris Martin cannot play in a 442, Will Hughes doesn't have that much quality...yet.Will Tom Ince ever deliver on the qualtiy he has?

So its time to wonder about recruitment. This is going to take a while to sort out, getting the players in who can deliver consistent football. Clough can boast that 8 of his players were in that play off semi final.....the same 8 that got him sacked!!!

We lack any natural pace and the steal in midfield to dominate games. We are so overloaded with Midfielders its ridiculous but not one including George Thorne can take the game by the scruff of the neck and turn it around. Players like Drinkwater & Leadbetter are clear examples of this.

Its going to be a long season and its time to back the manager and stop booing. The players are clearly trying their hardest but this is the limit of their abilities or they would not be here!!! No matter how great our football was in previous seasons we are still in the championship. Time to break the bubble we were all in and deal with the reality. Being a Derby fan has never been straight forward,i am though astonished at how negative it has got not just on here but at the games. 

Reality is paying a club record fee for Bradley Johnson and be left scratching your head to wonder how that man can figure out how to lace his boots.I have never in my life seen a player so disinterested about playing football. He obviously isn't but someone explain why he cannot play anywhere across the midfield at this level. He should be our Drinkwater!! How can a player finish a season and start a new one playing at the same poor level?

It clearly doesn't matter who is the manager with this players....they just cannot perform to the level required. They don't become bad players overnight. Pearson as we all know/hoped is a proven man manager as as he showed at saving Leicester from the drop. He doesn't become a poor manager overnight. I believe he still is the correct man for the job, its just difficult to see who he can mould this group to get any kind of consistent performance that we deserve as paying fans!!

[Joe.]

2 hours ago, ElBeef said:

I think its right that Pearson says it doesn't matter about formations its down to how the players play. In this modern day football surely players crossing that white line can play anywhere on the pitch?

They were talking about this on talksport the other day (though it was about sturridge playing on the wing) yeah players can play in other positions than the one they they typically do but it doesn't mean they will still be as effective or enjoy playing there as much.

I mean would you like to see us playing with wing backs if it were just Baird and Warnock were fit (if we still had Warnock of course) I'm sure they could play there but I don't think it would be the most effective position for them to play as they wouldnt suit the attacking nature of being a wing back. Same can be said for Hughes being played in defensive midfield he can (and does) do a job there but he's more suited to playing further up the pitch.

It is down to the players attitude to an extent, but it is surely more effective to play them where they have experience and they are suited to playing.

[cannable]

Of course systems matter. If you're playing Bryson in a holding role you're limiting his best attribute which is his intelligent forward runs. If you restrict your midfielders running then you isolate Martin and he becomes nullified. 

[toddy]

24 minutes ago, cannable said:

Of course systems matter. If you're playing Bryson in a holding role you're limiting his best attribute which is his intelligent forward runs. If you restrict your midfielders running then you isolate Martin and he becomes nullified. 

Martin was isolated in lost of games last season nothing new here. Midfield sitting too deep again happened lots of times last season , again nothing new here.

Different manager same outcome, the players are the common dominator.

[ElBeef]

Systems obviously matter otherwise you would get 10 outfield players running around with no end product!!!!!!!

It doesn't matter who is in charge of the team. They train the players everyday and are in the best position to judge the players. If the manager sees that a player does well in training he will obviously try it in a league match. Why else would he play Hughes i that role.

If you remember in the second half vs Villa Hughes & Bryson switched. Hughes performed better and Bryson fit in well at CDM. This backs up Pearsons comments after the Burton game about Brysons qualities. Bryson is the perfect example of the play anywhere player. 

I can only imagine the managers frustrations when players do not turn up on a match day!!

Not to get on Martins back but it does bother me when he struggles to play in a 442. Give him the ball i the box and 9/10 he will put it away......hes just got to get into the box first. Oh and this thread is not a Martin basher thread, he is just not suited to the Pearson way of playing......mind you at the moment who is?

[ramit]

i would have thought Pearson would have partly admitted that his tactics, training methods and man management have not been overly effective so far but he's blamed the players instead, when clearly it's the combination of the two.  Not what i would expect from a tough guy.  Since Bucko moved on it's become apparent to me that this group of players are a bunch of unhardened wimps, so piling discipline on them will be largely ineffective, they will just sulk, so that leaves us with two choices as i see it, sweet talk them or terrorize them to perform.  i prefer the latter, but beginning to doubt Pearson is the man to do it, a man who didn't bother to do his homework on the players he was taking over because of his supreme confidence in himself to get the best out of any group, irrespective of any lessons learned by previous coaches.  How's that working for you Nigel?

[Robbie Ram]

4 minutes ago, ramit said:

i would have thought Pearson would have partly admitted that his tactics, training methods and man management have not been overly effective so far but he's blamed the players instead, when clearly it's the combination of the two.  Not what i would expect from a tough guy.  Since Bucko moved on it's become apparent to me that this group of players are a bunch of unhardened wimps, so piling discipline on them will be largely ineffective, they will just sulk, so that leaves us with two choices as i see it, sweet talk them or terrorize them to perform.  i prefer the latter, but beginning to doubt Pearson is the man to do it, a man who didn't bother to do his homework on the players he was taking over because of his supreme confidence in himself to get the best out of any group, irrespective of any lessons learned by previous coaches.  How's that working for you Nigel?

Dead right, Ramit old lad.

Think we'll get your Iceland Captain from Cardiff?

[ramit]

3 minutes ago, Robbie Ram said:

Dead right, Ramit old lad.

Think we'll get your Iceland Captain from Cardiff?

i can only hope we get Aron.  In the national team he plays CM but also does the job of a DM, so almost like two players in one.  If he comes, he must be made captain.  It would be a decent first step but we need to move a few players out of this jaded group for football to become fun again. 

[nfb]

At last a sensible, reasoned thread.
Not much to add, good points well made. What i will say is that systems definitely matter, i think that what NP was eluding to was that if players dont turn up in 'the right mindset' (which he also said) then it doesn't matter what system you play!, subtle difference to systems dont matter.

The intriguing point is why aren't players turning up with the right mindset ?

We can all guess, some might guess NP is too harsh with the poor little darlings, or might guess they are worried that if they dont do exactly as they are told they are out, so freeze ? 

I cant imagine any of them, players or management left the Pirelli feeling happy, nor did we, but thats what NP is paid to do, sort it out and i believe he will, but the one thing i know wont happen is what some on this forum have been naively saying which is MM should sack the lot of them bring back NC/SMC, or get Warburton, as if he would ? It would cost him (guessing) 60million to sack everyone and pay off their contracts, then buy a new team in todays market !..... dream on.

He interviewed NP and others, (and it has to be said in the poll in the DET - Pearson had approx 35% of the vote from fans next being Martinez 19% Rowett 11% etc) he chose Pearson and said he felt he was the stand out one for the job. Now we will see, because MM chose Clement and got his fingers burnt, so if he does again because Pearson fails, despite his generosity towards this club, fans will want his head next, and then where will we be ?

Be careful what you wish for is a phrase that springs to mind , look at florist, they hounded out Doughty, and now ??

[Van der MoodHoover]

12 minutes ago, ramit said:

i can only hope we get Aron.  In the national team he plays CM but also does the job of a DM, so almost like two players in one.  If he comes, he must be made captain.  It would be a decent first step but we need to move a few players out of this jaded group for football to become fun again. 

I would make him teach us the "HOOOO"...clap.....routine as a contractual clause.

[GeneralRam]

The squad needs an entire overhaul. They have failed for 3 years and bottled it too many times when it mattered, so every time something bad happens their heads drop.

[nfb]

12 minutes ago, GeneralRam said:

The squad needs an entire overhaul. They have failed for 3 years and bottled it too many times when it mattered, so every time something bad happens their heads drop.

Get rid of them all ? see my previous post...

[Tony Le Mesmer]

32 minutes ago, HantsRam said:

I would make him teach us the "HOOOO"...clap.....routine as a contractual clause.

As it's Derby maybe we'll do the "BOOOO" clap instead?

[GeneralRam]

32 minutes ago, nfb said:

Get rid of them all ? see my previous post...

The majority of them. Yes.

[lrm14]

We've had a squad built by Clough to play very attacking football, which McClaren continued. We've now had Clement and Pearson come in to try to change the system to something much more defensive. We don't need to overhaul, we need to play to our squads strengths, it's as simple as that. Interestingly the squad disharmony seems to have come with the introduction of a few big money signings like Butterfield, Blackman, and Johnson yet people are more concerned with getting rid of Martin over them.

[Alph]

4 hours ago, toddy said:

Martin was isolated in lost of games last season nothing new here. Midfield sitting too deep again happened lots of times last season , again nothing new here.

Different manager same outcome, the players are the common dominator.

Except when McClaren had them it didn't go like that. 

Same players. 

[toddy]

1 hour ago, Alpha said:

Except when McClaren had them it didn't go like that. 

Same players. 

As I have said, I think the players have peaked, never really replicated the first season under mac. I also think they played to there max in that season possibly to their 100% limit. 

Players have to take responsibility once they cross the white line.

[LeedsCityRam]

What is happening is that we've been found out. When McClaren took over, Derby's sudden flair was a real surprise to many teams after a relatively attritional style under Clough & it paid dividends with many impressive performances & results. Sadly, our inability to get over the line at Wembley was arguably the high point for this group of players. McClaren's second season was nowhere near as fluent & although we were top going into Feb 15, we crashed alarmingly & haven't really recovered since. Basically teams sussed out that we play a lot of nice stuff but don't have that many options other than going through Martin - obvious tactic being to isolate Martin with plenty of defensive attention & hardworking midfielders that push up to squash the space for our midfield because we have no pace in behind.

Pearson has clearly been brought in to better equip us for a promotion challenge with a mix of styles/options but I fear that many in the squad just aren't capable of adapting. We very rarely play quick one touch passing, instead wanting plenty of time to pass sideways & its too easy to defend against. Our proportion of genuine chances created versus % possession must be the worse in the league by some distance. Allied to an alarming deterioration in technique (wayward passing, terrible first touches etc) and understandable loss of confidence from not playing well, we look miles away from a promotion challenge.

We should have accepted the £6.5m from Wolves for Martin. He's been brilliant for us but we need to go in a slightly different direction now if we're going to go forward. The 2013-14 team is finished & it isn't coming back.