Carl Sagan Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 1 hour ago, needles said: ...but bad for football. There's an argument (or there certainly was at the time) that the Premier League is/was bad for football. It doesn't mean I didn't/don't want to be in it. By entering DCFC gains an advantage. I would enjoy the history if our U21s were to win the trophy at Wembley in a brilliant double with the first team gaining promotion. And it would be excellent for recruiting top talent to the academy. The teams not entering will probably end up regretting it. Times change. Football changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
needles Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 9 minutes ago, Carl Sagan said: Times change. Football changes. True. Don't have to like it or approve of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derby_Dave Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 18 hours ago, cheron85 said: I don't... It'll be good for the u21s to get more games and to play against some bigger, harder players... Did you read what Callum Guy said about his loan? Said it was a step up playing against actual adults rather than teenagers... I agree no substitute for competitive games. They will learn so much more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 18 hours ago, SaintRam said: It's not about the tradition of the cup for me, I couldn't give a monkeys if the cup was cancelled forever. I don't care about any of the teams involved, and I doubt Derby's ever going to be competing in it. My big issue with it is that it's a clear foot in the door towards getting an English version of "B" teams in the lower leagues, which would be ****. I dunno... I think the fact that the big boys have refused to play suggests they aren't that bothered? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintRam Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 4 minutes ago, cheron85 said: I dunno... I think the fact that the big boys have refused to play suggests they aren't that bothered? Probably terrified their expensive youth teams in their fancy new facilities will get found out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 23 minutes ago, SaintRam said: Probably terrified their expensive youth teams in their fancy new facilities will get found out. I suspect it's more because they know they can get loan time for their players whenever they want it anyway... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bald Eagle's Barmy Army Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 Its also good for the development of lower league teams and for their players to get noticed. win win all around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anon Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 4 minutes ago, CHCDerby said: Its also good for the development of lower league teams and for their players to get noticed. win win all around. How does playing against under 21 sides aid the development of lower league teams? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnram Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 1 hour ago, Anon said: How does playing against under 21 sides aid the development of lower league teams? Probably by coming up against higher skill levels than they would playing in League 2. By the same token the U21's would benefit by playing against some of the more physical aspects of the lower leagues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anon Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 27 minutes ago, bcnram said: Probably by coming up against higher skill levels than they would playing in League 2. By the same token the U21's would benefit by playing against some of the more physical aspects of the lower leagues. So, what is the big difference between this and simply loaning players out to lower league sides? One of the big arguments proponents of this idea come up with is that young players aren't learning much by being sent to get kicked around for a season by league 2 journeymen, so their big idea to combat this is to enter the entire u21 team in a cup competition where they can get kicked around by league 1/2 journeymen. There is no logic to this proposal beyond premiership sides wanting to justify hoovering up even more young talent and hoarding them in gigantic reserve squads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Sagan Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 10 minutes ago, Anon said: So, what is the big difference between this and simply loaning players out to lower league sides? One of the big arguments proponents of this idea come up with is that young players aren't learning much by being sent to get kicked around for a season by league 2 journeymen, so their big idea to combat this is to enter the entire u21 team in a cup competition where they can get kicked around by league 1/2 journeymen. There is no logic to this proposal beyond premiership sides wanting to justify hoovering up even more young talent and hoarding them in gigantic reserve squads. There are no more emergency loans allowed. There will still be season-long loans, but then you're committing your youngsters to a lower-league side for a long period and that might not be desirable. There was an additional category previously called the "youth loan" but I've no idea how the new rules apply to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddie Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 2 hours ago, cheron85 said: I suspect it's more because they know they can get loan time for their players whenever they want it anyway... Isn't it season loans only now, or doesn't that apply to U21s? Edit: what @Carl Sagan said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anon Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 38 minutes ago, Carl Sagan said: There are no more emergency loans allowed. There will still be season-long loans, but then you're committing your youngsters to a lower-league side for a long period and that might not be desirable. There was an additional category previously called the "youth loan" but I've no idea how the new rules apply to that. Don't get me started on the closure on the emergency loan window. FIFA should've been told to get ****** and keep their noses out of our domestic game. The cheek of corrupt officials at FIFA lecturing us on loan rules that hurt the "sporting integrity" of the game is one of the most hypocritical things I've ever heard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddie Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 15 minutes ago, Anon said: Don't get me started on the closure on the emergency loan window. FIFA should've been told to get ****** and keep their noses out of our domestic game. The cheek of corrupt officials at FIFA lecturing us on loan rules that hurt the "sporting integrity" of the game is one of the most hypocritical things I've ever heard. What's the name for the football equivalent of a kipper? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 1 hour ago, eddie said: Isn't it season loans only now, or doesn't that apply to U21s? Edit: what @Carl Sagan said. 1 hour ago, Carl Sagan said: There are no more emergency loans allowed. There will still be season-long loans, but then you're committing your youngsters to a lower-league side for a long period and that might not be desirable. There was an additional category previously called the "youth loan" but I've no idea how the new rules apply to that. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/12162020/Football-League-bypasses-Fifa-emergency-loan-ban.html This is from a while ago BUT suggests that there are contracted ways around this... Similar to the deal/agreement we had with Rotherham when we brought Rawson back for a couple of U-21 games... Loan for a year but they don't have to spend their whole time there if they aren't getting games? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ewetube Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 2 hours ago, eddie said: What's the name for the football equivalent of a kipper? Kipperinho Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddie Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 1 hour ago, Ewetube said: Kipperinho I was hoping someone would say "Kikker" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnram Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 11 hours ago, Anon said: So, what is the big difference between this and simply loaning players out to lower league sides? One of the big arguments proponents of this idea come up with is that young players aren't learning much by being sent to get kicked around for a season by league 2 journeymen, so their big idea to combat this is to enter the entire u21 team in a cup competition where they can get kicked around by league 1/2 journeymen. There is no logic to this proposal beyond premiership sides wanting to justify hoovering up even more young talent and hoarding them in gigantic reserve squads. The difference:- They will not be playing with players of generally less ability, they will be with their clubs U21 side. They will however for just a few games come up against many adult players who are more physically developed. They will have to learn to compete with physically stronger players in the same way that they would have to if they suddenly found themselves in the first team playing in the Premier League or Championship. There are some decent teams in the two lower leagues that play football, they are not all filled with as you say 'journeymen'. It will be a worthwhile experience for the U21 teams and for the lower league sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anon Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 7 hours ago, bcnram said: The difference:- They will not be playing with players of generally less ability, they will be with their clubs U21 side. They will however for just a few games come up against many adult players who are more physically developed. They will have to learn to compete with physically stronger players in the same way that they would have to if they suddenly found themselves in the first team playing in the Premier League or Championship. There are some decent teams in the two lower leagues that play football, they are not all filled with as you say 'journeymen'. It will be a worthwhile experience for the U21 teams and for the lower league sides. The logic of that argument is inconsistent. You say yourself that lower league players are "of generally less ability" before contradicting yourself in the very next paragraph. Personally, I agree more with the second paragraph. There are plenty of decent players in the lower leagues in teams who are capable of playing good football, which is why I find it so bizarre that some top clubs and the FA are seeking to introduce U21 teams to lower league competitions rather than loan players to allow them play alongside and learn from those players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rample Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 I'm presuming all types of loans are still possible if started inside the window. Would expect a lot of loans to now run from July to January then be renewed after. Will mean a really frantic deadline day. Also the youth loan/work experience loop hole for younger players could still apply. What we'll probably see is a lot more players at a younger age/lower ability heading to non-league for a month or 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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