Shang Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 2 hours ago, StivePesley said: Read another good article on the Universal Income today http://www.vox.com/conversations/2016/10/17/13245808/andy-stern-work-universal-basic-income-technology-artificial-intelligence-unions This guys seems to think it's inevitable, due to automation. Particularly interesting is the point he makes when challenged with "Conservatives in particular will reject UBI as inherently un-American or an extension of the welfare state" I'd never really thought of it that way before - that allowing all people to start from the same position and then leaving them to it is actually just as much a right-wing idea as a socialist idea. Yeah it's right to think about it as providing everyone with the same solid foundation (currently too easy for people to fall into destitution). Then there is no excuse for people not succeeding since they'll have enough to get by all the time. Will definitely happen, full automation is coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 On 7/16/2016 at 05:13, Shuff264 said: Something that needs to be phased in slowly over time, with automation comes cheaper product but if no one is working whos going to buy anything? This is basically one of the two cores of the argument, the other being that the cost of strong welfare system could ironically be better used actually giving people a standard basic income, than on deciding whether people need government assistance. Should definitely be careful in assuming that it's inevitable though, there will be a massive ideological battle before anything really happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted January 6, 2017 Author Share Posted January 6, 2017 A couple of interesting developments in this area Trials being considered in Scotlandhttps://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/01/universal-basic-income-trials-being-considered-in-scotland Finland has started a trial this monthhttp://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/01/finland-introduces-basic-income-unemployed-170103190406168.html I'd be surprised if we don't see at least one country take this on wholesale within 10 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LesterRam Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 13 minutes ago, StivePesley said: A couple of interesting developments in this area Trials being considered in Scotlandhttps://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/01/universal-basic-income-trials-being-considered-in-scotland Finland has started a trial this monthhttp://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/01/finland-introduces-basic-income-unemployed-170103190406168.html I'd be surprised if we don't see at least one country take this on wholesale within 10 years. wouldn't this demotivate the workforce though, is it being used successfully in any other part of the world? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted January 6, 2017 Author Share Posted January 6, 2017 17 minutes ago, LesterRam said: wouldn't this demotivate the workforce though, is it being used successfully in any other part of the world? There was a trial in Canada and the findings were that it had very little effect on people's motivation to work. The theory is certainly based on the opposite. Providing a safety net actually motivates people more to innovate, take chances, try something different, volunteer etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteHorseRam Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 Its a very interesting scenario, not sure if it would be a benefit of BREXIT though. (In the short term, we need to ensure that we just have a pot to p**s in, whether it was made by R2D2 or fat Dave.) I think the idea of work will change as robotisation (if that's the word) comes in. Its interesting if you look back at what people did for a living in centuries gone by - you then realise how far we have already come. Chopping wood and turning a spit with a lump of meat on in it were big employment areas in 1600. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ariotofmyown Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 20 minutes ago, WhiteHorseRam said: "Chopping wood and turning a spit with a lump of meat on in it were big employment areas in 1600." I've got a new idea for a hipster business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddie Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 23 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said: I've got a new idea for a hipster business. The Memsahib's grandad was a basket-maker. That probably explains why she married a basket-case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramkesian Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 The trail in Canada wasn't true universal income, each member of the trail were given $200 per month, nowhere near enough to survive on. It basically subsidised their incomes so the results would have been misleading at best. In theory universal income appears to be very productive, and in trails undertaken in India it was very successful, they took 20 villages containing 12,000 people in total and gave each of them a monthly payment of approximately $24 (calculated to be enough to survive on.) , even children were given a monthly payment. These village communities actually thrived and with the reduced risk of possible individual economic failures, people started up micro businesses which benefited the villages. The Indian government are now planning to retrial this using 1000 villages to confirm the original results and findings. The main concern is would a similar experiment work in the western world, the Swiss held a national referendum to adopt universal income, potentially giving each person 30,000 Swiss francs per annum income,yet they voted against it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/basic-income-pilots-scotland-ubi-glasgow-finland-canada-ontario-switzerland-referendum-refuses-to-a7505561.html Interesting opinion piece on why it's a bad idea, for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted January 7, 2017 Author Share Posted January 7, 2017 19 hours ago, reveldevil said: http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/basic-income-pilots-scotland-ubi-glasgow-finland-canada-ontario-switzerland-referendum-refuses-to-a7505561.html Interesting opinion piece on why it's a bad idea, for now. Yeah interesting, but I'd argue he's not really though his arguments through and the dig at the Labour Party towards the end belies his true motivation in rubbishing the idea. As I mentioned earlier in the thread - UBI is not really a left-wing idea, and if anything it's classic free-market thinking that the right (on paper) should be quite happy with. Everyone gets the same, and we all stand on our own two feet thereafter. The left should be more scared of it than the right because it becomes much harder to be compassionate to those who struggle when there is no argument that they've been let down by the government. Therefore I'm sceptical of any resistance to it from the right because it betrays their true fear - which is that it might actually narrow the poverty gap - leaving poor people (ugh) encroaching on their turf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ariotofmyown Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 I'm just looking forward to the days when everything is automated. Everything will be free cos no one needs to be paid. Everyone wil be equal and everyone will have unlimited leisure time. The arts will explode and everyday will just be a continuous stream of music, film, tv, games, sport (playing and watching), theatre, drinking. Don't fear the reaper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shang Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 On 07/01/2017 at 23:19, ariotofmyown said: I'm just looking forward to the days when everything is automated. Everything will be free cos no one needs to be paid. Everyone wil be equal and everyone will have unlimited leisure time. The arts will explode and everyday will just be a continuous stream of music, film, tv, games, sport (playing and watching), theatre, drinking. Don't fear the reaper. Fully Automated Luxury Communism is the name some of the left are calling this concept. If it works out it'll be a creative enlightenment period. Problem is the people who benefit from capitalism would do all they can (with all their money / influence) to stop this from happening. Their fortunes are built on poor people living desperately uncertain times, willing to work for as little as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted January 9, 2017 Author Share Posted January 9, 2017 I struggle to see full automation. Everything we have at work that is automated has a team of people checking it is working properly and then fixing it when it goes wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LesterRam Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 18 hours ago, StivePesley said: I struggle to see full automation. Everything we have at work that is automated has a team of people checking it is working properly and then fixing it when it goes wrong its like those self service counters at your local Tesco, the frigging thing fails to register the barcode 8 out of 10 times, I needed input because under strict new laws you need to be 18 to buy a loaf of bread, obviously a fault but still had to wait five minutes for a woman that was buzzing around like a blue arsed fly trying to keep up to clear the error automation my arse, next they will be bringing out driverless cars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted January 10, 2017 Author Share Posted January 10, 2017 1 minute ago, LesterRam said: automation my arse, next they will be bringing out driverless cars LOL - don't get me started on driverless cars! Driverless cars will lead to reckless driving from everyone else. If you know a car is programmed to stop if you pull out, you're going to pull out aren't you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LesterRam Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 7 minutes ago, StivePesley said: LOL - don't get me started on driverless cars! Driverless cars will lead to reckless driving from everyone else. If you know a car is programmed to stop if you pull out, you're going to pull out aren't you what happens in say the M25 around tilbury docks, my sat nav goes awol under all those tunnels, I had the same discussion with er indoors about other peoples reckless driving and we both agreed its not going to work is it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted January 10, 2017 Author Share Posted January 10, 2017 6 minutes ago, LesterRam said: what happens in say the M25 around tilbury docks, my sat nav goes awol under all those tunnels, I had the same discussion with er indoors about other peoples reckless driving and we both agreed its not going to work is it. That's before you even get onto the ethics of how you program them to crash in the event of an unavoidable accident. Do you program them to kill the passengers or the pedestrians? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highgate Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 17 minutes ago, StivePesley said: LOL - don't get me started on driverless cars! Driverless cars will lead to reckless driving from everyone else. If you know a car is programmed to stop if you pull out, you're going to pull out aren't you The transition to driverless cars does seem to be problematic, for exactly the reason you've said. However apparently driverless cars are inevitable! They will have their benefits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McRamFan Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 31 minutes ago, Highgate said: The transition to driverless cars does seem to be problematic, for exactly the reason you've said. However apparently driverless cars are inevitable! They will have their benefits. Develop an 'auto grid' where a massive grid is under the road and a computer controls the cars, when you go off grid manual control returns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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