TroyDyer Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 The goal and the previous chance, all brought about by getting sucked out of position. Christie up the pitch, but LEARN MAN! https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=PkkO0FdulpU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gypsy Ram Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 10 minutes ago, TroyDyer said: The goal and the previous chance, all brought about by getting sucked out of position. Christie up the pitch, but LEARN MAN! https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=PkkO0FdulpU What a Douch bag celebration. It's like they won the champions league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highgate Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 3 hours ago, eddie said: I find it quite educating that people are now sure that all our ills are down to Keogh. Foolishly I thought that it was the people at the other end of the pitch whose contribution was lacking at the moment. Did Keogh make Vydra miss all those sitters in recent weeks? He must have, I suppose. It all makes sense now. Obviously Keogh isn't just our centre-back, he is also responsible for coaching our strikers and our tactics in general. It's only a matter of time before someone accuses Keogh of being the second shooter that took out JFK. We've only conceded 11 goals in 14 league games....isn't that quite good? A quick check reveals it's in fact the second best in the league, alongside Newcastle. The late goals hurt, but that often happens to teams low on confidence- they try to hang on at the end, invite pressure and get picked off. When assessing our current problems, focusing on the defense is clearly focusing on the wrong end of the pitch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PodgeyRam Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 27 minutes ago, TroyDyer said: The goal and the previous chance, all brought about by getting sucked out of position. Christie up the pitch, but LEARN MAN! https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=PkkO0FdulpU What the hell do you want him to do? Just leave the man so he has 20 yards of space, giving him time put in a perfect cross? There were mistakes for the goal, but Keogh certainly wasn't one of the people making them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mostyn6 Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 all said and done, a striker can miss every chance in a game, but it doesn't give the opponent 3 points and yourselves 0. A defender's costly mistake can do this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highgate Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 4 minutes ago, Mostyn6 said: all said and done, a striker can miss every chance in a game, but it doesn't give the opponent 3 points and yourselves 0. A defender's costly mistake can do this. Both scenarios are dependent on what the rest of the team and the opposition have been doing...there is an equivalence there really, a defender messing up and giving a goal away is no better or worse than a striker missing a sitter. The thing is it's harder for a defender to conspicuously atone for his error....whereas if the striker scores afterwards his mistake is largely forgotten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duracell Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 1 hour ago, TroyDyer said: Keogh playing out of the back is a myth. Reminds me of a scene in the film goal. The manager kicks the ball long over the lads head and states that the ball moves faster that you can run. The crowd may roar when he runs out from the back, but when he checks back and lays it off to pearce/johnson/hughes/Christie who happened to have taken a position behind him, it makes the whole "he can play it out from the back" arguement mute. Get some black boots and pass the ball ********. I'm not sure that's the entirety of what people mean when they say "Keogh can play out the back." They're talking about his distribution as well, which is above average for a Championship CB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TroyDyer Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 56 minutes ago, Gypsy Ram said: What a Douch bag celebration. It's like they won the champions league. They beat a team of big dogs on big wages, who fancy themselves as Real Madrid. I would have celebrated the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TroyDyer Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 40 minutes ago, PodgeyRam said: What the hell do you want him to do? Just leave the man so he has 20 yards of space, giving him time put in a perfect cross? There were mistakes for the goal, but Keogh certainly wasn't one of the people making them! I want him to be a captain. I want him to organise. I want him to realise that the lad wants to go on his left and ping in a cross. So don't give him the opportunity. Stay tall. Stay big. Pick the ground between "he can flick it past me" and "he has all the time to fling in a cross". It really isn't rocket science. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ambitious Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 Keogh is the least of our problems at the minute, and I mean the very, very, very least of our problems. I can make a case to why every single player in the squad should be dropped or sold, yet Keogh, for me, comes in last. He was by far and away our best player last season, probably our best player this season. I'd argue that we need to get rid of those that aren't up to his standard before trying to move him on. The defence is sound at their key job - keeping the ball out of the net. We conceded less than a goal a game last season, we're doing the same again this season. I think that has to be the aim for the defence. The midfield and the attackers need to be aiming for an average of 1.8 goals a game. I think ultimately that's the standard you should be setting if you want to get out of the division. At the moment we are falling roughly 18 goals short of that target. If we carry on at the pace we're at now, we'll score 23 goals this season. I guess it's another record for the collection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PodgeyRam Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 2 minutes ago, TroyDyer said: I want him to be a captain. I want him to organise. I want him to realise that the lad wants to go on his left and ping in a cross. So don't give him the opportunity. Stay tall. Stay big. Pick the ground between "he can flick it past me" and "he has all the time to fling in a cross". It really isn't rocket science. He can organise all he wants, when Christie goes wandering off as he is prone to do he has to move out to the right. You show the man down the outside and trust that your defence can deal with the cross. Never show him inside, especially where he can get a shot off. That's basic defending. You only show him inside when you're set in your shapeand the midfield is packed which it wasn't. He did stay tall and big. He got done for pace by a winger who with 60 minutes less running in his legs. If he'd given him more room, then he would've got the run on him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 11 minutes ago, TroyDyer said: I want him to be a captain. I want him to organise. You want Shacks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duracell Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 58 minutes ago, Mostyn6 said: all said and done, a striker can miss every chance in a game, but it doesn't give the opponent 3 points and yourselves 0. A defender's costly mistake can do this. Serious question, how many points have Keogh's mistakes cost us over the years? And how many times have clean sheets earned us points with Keogh leading the line? I wouldn't know where to find this infallible CB who would be willing to play in the second tier, but in this league, every player has flaws and it's a case of working out if the good things outweigh the bad. There's a growing list of managers who have judged that it does in the case of Keogh. I'm speaking as someone who hasn't particularly warmed to Keogh over the years. I think he suits our style of play in terms of his distribution, he knows how to tackle, and he's pretty quick for a CB. As an outsider, I'm not keen on the way he shouts at his team-mates but I don't know the dynamics of the squad well enough to know if that's an issue because I'm not in the dressing room and I don't know what he's like most of the time. If we had a decent recruitment team, I'm sure we could find better, but we don't have a decent recruitment team and the evidence on recent form suggests that if we did sell him, his replacement would be very expensive and slightly worse. But I've always found the anti-Keoghism after a disappointing result to be interesting. I think his costly mistake, even though it wasn't just him, at Wembley 29 months ago has earned him a reputation that exaggerates the flaws in his game. Sometimes, he over-plays out from the back and sometimes he has lapses in concentration`which means we concede. I'm just don't buy in to the argument that these are such a regular occurrence that he's the main thing holding us back, and I've never read or heard someone argue it convincingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomsdubs Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 7 minutes ago, PodgeyRam said: He can organise all he wants, when Christie goes wandering off as he is prone to do he has to move out to the right. You show the man down the outside and trust that your defence can deal with the cross. Never show him inside, especially where he can get a shot off. That's basic defending. You only show him inside when you're set in your shapeand the midfield is packed which it wasn't. He did stay tall and big. He got done for pace by a winger who with 60 minutes less running in his legs. If he'd given him more room, then he would've got the run on him. Keogh was also injured but battling on, the guys in the middle should have dealt with that cross all day long. They were nowhere near it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nottingram Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 If this thread proves one thing it is that no matter what happens, people will see what they want to see. Most arguments I can at least understand, this one that Keogh is the issue is genuinely baffling. I can't get my head around how anyone can possibly think that. Just an irrational dislike for a player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brammie Steve Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 I like to hear a player shouting to (not at) his team mates. Is anyone else on here sufficiently aged as to remember Dave Mackay belting out instructions which the whole BBG could hear above the Popside roar? Great days of yore! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlsonDerby Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 10 hours ago, Mostyn6 said: all said and done, a striker can miss every chance in a game, but it doesn't give the opponent 3 points and yourselves 0. A defender's costly mistake can do this. I would argue that a defenders mistake costs us 1 point, a strikers mistake costs us 2 points as a striker scoring would have given us the win in my opinion and the defensive error cost us the draw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannable Posted October 26, 2016 Share Posted October 26, 2016 On 23/10/2016 at 16:52, Mostyn6 said: when have we ever benefitted from a quick movement out of defence started by Keogh? Never. You know why? He fires his passes at a player, or passes so weakly it barely gets there. It's all a myth. I believe it should be varied, there's nothing to say slowing it down, allowing our own players to get in advanced positions, is just as beneficial, if not more-so, than a CB whacking it out at speed. You cannot suck opponents in if you're not holding on to the ball to get them to come and challenge for the ball, but I'm sure you can find plenty of footage of this happening. Albentosa did it the right way, win the ball, give it to Hughes/Bryson/Mascarell/Hendrick or whoever. It's their job to orchestrate play. As for why Clough got rid of Shackell, it was nothing to do with passing. It was to do with commitment and attitude, oh, and money. Back to Keogh, I don't hate him at all, I just don't rate him (as being good enough for the next level up). He's a mid-table defender. I just watched goals because there is no way I'm going to trawl through RamsPlayer just to see how many attacks Keogh has been involved in - but anyway; since 11/12 Keogh has been a part of 11 team goals, Bucko 7, Shackell 2 and Shotton 1. We haven't scored from a move through the thirds with Keogh and Shackell at the back and both of the goals Shacks was involved with were from 11/12 when we didn't really play from the back. Hardly a concrete counter-argument from myself but it would take a sad sad man to trawl through every one of our games since we signed Keogh to see how often he's involved! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grantona Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 Maybe Keogh is just one of those unlucky players? Two play-off failures and a promotion failure in 2014/15. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TroyDyer Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 2 hours ago, Grantona said: Maybe Keogh is just one of those unlucky players? Two play-off failures and a promotion failure in 2014/15. And a relegation to league one. Bad luck, or common denominator... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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