Reflection

[SaintRam]

Just now, curtains said:

Read my reply to Cam 

I did. The fact is, PC was lauded for one performance in 30. Wassall might not have answers, I'm not sitting here saying now we have Wassall we're going up, this conversation is not about Wassall. I just think, in hindsight, the appointment of PC was a mistake and he needed to go. 

Hopefully the next full time appointment is more successful. 

[Curtains]

2 minutes ago, SaintRam said:

I did. The fact is, PC was lauded for one performance in 30. Wassall might not have answers, I'm not sitting here saying now we have Wassall we're going up, this conversation is not about Wassall. I just think, in hindsight, the appointment of PC was a mistake and he needed to go. 

Hopefully the next full time appointment is more successful. 

Decent and good answer. 

But don't expect wonderful football at places like Brenford and Brighton etc. 

We may have to dig in or Rat like Craig Ramage says sometimes on Radio Derby. 

[cannable]

I honestly believed that had we been promoted under McClaren, during either season, then we'd have reached Europe within three years. Had we gone up under Clement I fear we'd have had to spend another £25,000,000 to even stand a chance of staying up. 

We were a young team, they would have grown together. The average age of the team that started at Wembley was 24, with our three eldest players being the centre-halves and Grant. We tried to impose our game against anybody. 

Teams that go up playing good, technical football and continue to pay it in the Premier League not only stay up, they prosper.

Of Swansea's most used XI during their initial Premier League season seven were already at the club (chances are it would have been 8 had they managed to agree a new contract with Dorus De Vries). They actually finished 11th in their first season and only missed out on a top half finish by one goal FOR. The year after they qualified for Europe. 

Of Southampton's most used XI during their initial Premier League season seven were already at the club. Six of those players were in their most featured XI when they finished eighth. The year after, they qualified for Europe. Contrast this with Reading, who finished ahead of Southampton the year they both went up. Reading were a counter-attacking side. They sucked teams in and broke. They finished 19th in the Premier League. 

I can see why Mel wants good football and performances first. 

[Cam the Ram]

Just now, curtains said:

So attacking football always works does it .

Ever thought that teams stop us playing attacking football at the IPRO and sit with 2 banks of 4 behind the ball i.e. Birmingham City. 

Then as when Paul Clement stated you go gang ho you get hit for 3 goals. 

Hull away we won 2-0 and Paul was lauded with the performance. 

What makes you think Wassall has the answers .

He may get a honeymoon period for sure but you will still have disgruntled players not in the 1st 11 right. 

I don't think Wassall has the answers, but I believe there's a fair few managers out there who'll do better than Clement has with this team.

You just need to get over it, Clement has gone. You getting emotional and stating 'Forest are laughing at us' isn't going to suddenly make Mel think, 'You know what? Curtains has a point, I'll get Clement back in.' Forest were laughing at us before we sacked Clement. We had a 25 million + squad, played awful football and were falling down the league.

[Curtains]

7 minutes ago, Cam the Ram said:

I don't think Wassall has the answers, but I believe there's a fair few managers out there who'll do better than Clement has with this team.

You just need to get over it, Clement has gone. You getting emotional and stating 'Forest are laughing at us' isn't going to suddenly make Mel think, 'You know what? Curtains has a point, I'll get Clement back in.' Forest were laughing at us before we sacked Clement. We had a 25 million + squad, played awful football and were falling down the league.

I'm just saying we can't play attractive football all the time we may have to dig in and rat a little against 2 banks of 4 .

Other teams try to stop us playing at the IPRO. 

Thank for your reply but I repeat Football is not an exact science. 

You have to come up with tactics to beat the opposition like most teams do when they come to the IPRO.

4-0 against Bristol was good I thought and we are still 5th after all  

For me it's vital to get back to the Premier League and then take it from there .

i thought Paul Clement was the answer and I'm not going to change my mind. 

At the end of the day I'm a Rams fan and I'll back the team. 

[uttoxram75]

The time we bother about some bitter gumps laughing at us is the time to give up.

We could win the league and Cup double and they'd try and find some way to discredit us. Its how rivalries work Curtains me owd mucker. Their whole season now depends on us doing badly rather than anything they can achieve themselves.

Lets see who has the most to laugh about at the end of the season.

[Curtains]

5 minutes ago, uttoxram75 said:

The time we bother about some bitter gumps laughing at us is the time to give up.

We could win the league and Cup double and they'd try and find some way to discredit us. Its how rivalries work Curtains me owd mucker. Their whole season now depends on us doing badly rather than anything they can achieve themselves.

Lets see who has the most to laugh about at the end of the season.

I was being a tad mischievous to be honest .

I couldn't care less what the Red Dogs think but nevertheless some of the points Birtles makes hold some water. 

Got to get off this TRACK now. 

Up the Rams. 

 

[uttoxram75]

1 minute ago, curtains said:

I was being a tad mischievous to be honest .

I couldn't care less what the Red Dogs think but nevertheless some of the point Birtles makes hold water. 

I've not read any views from gumpshire tbh mate but I guess its very hard to grasp the meaning of what MM is saying, even for us!

My honest opinion is that we are in a unique situation where the owner genuinely wants us to develop a way of playing that is exciting and entertaining - if he get us there it'll be unbelievable, but whatever happens, we should enjoy the ride and go with Mel's dream.....I personally will start this song off on satdee.....

Everywhere we play, everywhere we playyyyyyyyyyyyy,

If you don't attack, you'll get the sack, its the Derby way.......

 

 

 

 

[AutoWindscreens]

3 minutes ago, uttoxram75 said:

Everywhere we play, everywhere we playyyyyyyyyyyyy,

 

If you don't attack, you'll get the sack, its the Derby way.......

 

Love it.

[Bald Eagle's Barmy Army]

37 minutes ago, curtains said:

Oh right. 

You don't like it if people don't agree with your every word. 

Can you let me know the real reason why Clement was sacked?

Was he just doing his job?

Did Mel sack him because he got out of bed the wrong way?

Nobody knows yet the reason but I'm sure we will at some point.

[catram]

I think we will play with more freedom on sat score early crowd get behind the team then go on a mad run shut dyche holloway and the red ***** up! Going up with wazza and kev!

[StaffsRam]

2 hours ago, WilkoRam said:

A hugely difficult task especially for a manager who's only been u21 boss. To get the balance between being hard to break down but also creative going forward is the utopia that everyone aims for but few can achieve. How do you make us more solid without curbing the attacking flow? How do you stay exciting but be solid at the back? 

We have the squad to do it in my opinion but it'll be hard to find a manager to come in who can accomplish both. 

I don't really expect that of DW - but then, I think (hope) that the 'until the end of the season' line is a smokescreen while we working on getting the next guy in, and then you're right, it'll be up to him to get the balance of the team back right.

For solid at the back but still being creative - a consistent four at the back, with a defensive midfielder in front of them. And of course, the best form of defence is attack anyway so let's put other sides on the back foot again instead of just playing in front of them.

[Srg]

3 minutes ago, StaffsRam said:

And of course, the best form of defence is attack anyway so let's put other sides on the back foot again instead of just playing in front of them.

I think this is key. Especially at home, we have started too slow all year. We get big crowds, who can be loud when they are given something to get behind. We should be coming out 100 miles an hour, trying to get early goals. Can be solid after that. Remember the McLaren way of getting up by a goal or two and then calming it down and controlling from there?

[StaffsRam]

4 minutes ago, Srg said:

I think this is key. Especially at home, we have started too slow all year. We get big crowds, who can be loud when they are given something to get behind. We should be coming out 100 miles an hour, trying to get early goals. Can be solid after that. Remember the McLaren way of getting up by a goal or two and then calming it down and controlling from there?

Perfect combination - vociferous crowd, behind an aggressively attacking team. Brighton, collectively **** themselves when they came to the iPro in the playoffs.

The way we've played this season, they'd probably tickle our bellies and we'd roll over for more.

[TheDeadlySaul]

22 hours ago, Duracell said:

I've had a hard time piecing it all together, until this snippet from BBC Sport:

Can I have a link to that article please. 

[Duracell]

8 minutes ago, TheDeadlySaul said:

Can I have a link to that article please. 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/35533154 

[Alph]

He thought you'd made it up Duracell.

[Rev]

@Duracell's post was great, explained in good detail how he thinks it when down, I really, really want that to be case, but I just don't believe it.

I'll start by saying I wasn't a massive Clement fan, and wasn't impressed by the football on offer, but pushed them doubts to the back of my mind seeing as it was his 1st taste of the top job, and results until recently had been good, poor start aside.

Maybe naively I thought performances would come through the confidence of winning games, and would have gave him a season at least.

Good win pre Xmas at Ipswich, followed by a regulation win over Fulham Boxing day.

Team sheet looked odd for Leeds, I don't believe you can rest players away from home in this league, but if we'd have put them away while well on top 1st half it would have been a good call, as it is we earned a deserved away point at a tricky opponent.

New year, Boro away - all 3 results could have been justified on performance, but in reality they were just a little bit better than us, no shame in losing to the best team in the league.

Nonsense cup game next, then the incoming transfers of Blackman and Camara before the next league game, Reading. 

Poor game,lucky point maybe, but what followed for me was the beginning of the end for Clement.

Not too bothered when I 1st heard reports of Mel addressing the dressing room, dismissed them as stirring,but his interviews yesterday have made me think again.

I think the following happened, the players and coaching staff trooped in, deflated at the performance, as Clement has said, immediately after a poor performance is not the time to reflect on it, maybe he's saying a few meaningless words of comfort, telling the lads we'll debrief tomorrow, when Mel bursts through the door and puts all the players and coaching staff on the carpet (his words not mine).

Clement is immediately called for the Radio Derby interview, and in the way of an inexperienced boss, panics and transfers the blame onto the players, lambasting them in public.

The players hear this, and think hold on, you weren't bollocking us 5 mins ago, what's changed, see he's too weak to tell Mel to do one, and is publicly transfering Mels ire onto us, and the fatal wound is struck, respect is lost, they believe the manager is one of the suits, not one of the squad!

Clement lost the dressing room that night, and with it any chance he had of success.

The fact Mel doesn't acknowledge it was a mistake doing it, and has done down Clement so publicly, with his nonsense talk of a 'no excuses policy' to justify giving a manager he had so little faith in, an extra January spend, gives me little faith he'll learn the lessons from this episode.

He could have said so little yesterday, and not have dumped on Clement, but instead he's twisted it to make PC look like an ambitious upstart who put his own career before DCFC, I hope Clement tells us to keep the hush money, and tells his side of the story.

Sorry for the forums longest ever post, btw!

[archied]

7 hours ago, curtains said:

I'm just saying we can't play attractive football all the time we may have to dig in and rat a little against 2 banks of 4 .

Other teams try to stop us playing at the IPRO. 

Thank for your reply but I repeat Football is not an exact science. 

You have to come up with tactics to beat the opposition like most teams do when they come to the IPRO.

4-0 against Bristol was good I thought and we are still 5th after all  

For me it's vital to get back to the Premier League and then take it from there .

i thought Paul Clement was the answer and I'm not going to change my mind. 

At the end of the day I'm a Rams fan and I'll back the team. 

God am I tired of hearing all about these teams that sit in banks of four at the ipro, it's all we've heard all season from clement,, how the fu(k do any good teams ever win a game , must be a nightmare for barca crap sides turn up banks of four and beat them , yes footballs not an exact science , yes you can't sparkle all the time and some days it's just not happening but you dig in and win scruffy ,,, but every game? Clement made it easy for poor sides to defend against us as we were so slow they could walk back into shape and also made it easy for poor sides to attack us as the chances of us breaking on them was virtually zero , hence Preston not only held us they created more,,,, at Fulham I watched as every Derby player stayed back to defend corners ??? Come on with the players at our disposal that's a bloody joke , 

[Duracell]

1 hour ago, reveldevil said:

@Duracell's post was great, explained in good detail how he thinks it when down, I really, really want that to be case, but I just don't believe it.

I'll start by saying I wasn't a massive Clement fan, and wasn't impressed by the football on offer, but pushed them doubts to the back of my mind seeing as it was his 1st taste of the top job, and results until recently had been good, poor start aside.

Maybe naively I thought performances would come through the confidence of winning games, and would have gave him a season at least.

Good win pre Xmas at Ipswich, followed by a regulation win over Fulham Boxing day.

Team sheet looked odd for Leeds, I don't believe you can rest players away from home in this league, but if we'd have put them away while well on top 1st half it would have been a good call, as it is we earned a deserved away point at a tricky opponent.

New year, Boro away - all 3 results could have been justified on performance, but in reality they were just a little bit better than us, no shame in losing to the best team in the league.

Nonsense cup game next, then the incoming transfers of Blackman and Camara before the next league game, Reading. 

Poor game,lucky point maybe, but what followed for me was the beginning of the end for Clement.

Not too bothered when I 1st heard reports of Mel addressing the dressing room, dismissed them as stirring,but his interviews yesterday have made me think again.

I think the following happened, the players and coaching staff trooped in, deflated at the performance, as Clement has said, immediately after a poor performance is not the time to reflect on it, maybe he's saying a few meaningless words of comfort, telling the lads we'll debrief tomorrow, when Mel bursts through the door and puts all the players and coaching staff on the carpet (his words not mine).

Clement is immediately called for the Radio Derby interview, and in the way of an inexperienced boss, panics and transfers the blame onto the players, lambasting them in public.

The players hear this, and think hold on, you weren't bollocking us 5 mins ago, what's changed, see he's too weak to tell Mel to do one, and is publicly transfering Mels ire onto us, and the fatal wound is struck, respect is lost, they believe the manager is one of the suits, not one of the squad!

Clement lost the dressing room that night, and with it any chance he had of success.

The fact Mel doesn't acknowledge it was a mistake doing it, and has done down Clement so publicly, with his nonsense talk of a 'no excuses policy' to justify giving a manager he had so little faith in, an extra January spend, gives me little faith he'll learn the lessons from this episode.

He could have said so little yesterday, and not have dumped on Clement, but instead he's twisted it to make PC look like an ambitious upstart who put his own career before DCFC, I hope Clement tells us to keep the hush money, and tells his side of the story.

Sorry for the forums longest ever post, btw!

No need to apologise for that! This is the thread for considered opinions.

We really don't know the ins and outs of why Mel Morris went into the dressing room that night. I'm worried he didn't seize the opportunity to note it as a mistake or promise it won't happen again. It's concerning he doesn't seem to take it seriously.

I have another theory as to why he entered the dressing room though, and it's a combination of things he said to Owen Bradley and what I saw on the pitch that night. The Reading performance was typified for me when on the half way line, facing his own goal under little pressure, teed the ball up for himself and then hooked it high up into the air. The body language of the rest of the players seemed to say "wtf was that?"

There are rumours that the established player, the old guard, are really unhappy at the moment and I wonder if there were concerns emerging over a split dressing room, rather than a lost one. You have Keogh, Bryson, Buxton, Hendrick, Russell and Martin and only one of those is players is in the team regularly and playing to the best of his abilities, despite the fact all of them are fit. Then you have £6m Johnson seemingly getting a start no matter what and Nick Blackman walks straight into the team.

Just wonder whether Morris was fearing a faction between Clement and his new boys, and the Clough/McClaren old guard who aren't enjoying their football anymore. Morris told Owen Bradley that there was a "danger of finger-pointing in the dressing room", and he almost presented it like his hand was forced in going down there.

Still a stupid thing to do, but I think that's an odd thing to say unless he was aware of some disharmony in the dressing room. The fact the news was even leaked in the first place tells you something.

I still stick to my original post though, that the difference in aims for Clement and Morris started to become apparent as early as November. Morris told Bradley that as late as Sunday night, he was on the phone to Clement to see if there was any sign that they could agree on what the goals were.

November was when we were right in form and Clement was the flavour of the month with the media. I think this was when he really saw how big a promotion this season could be for him professionally this season. This was when squad rotation got into full swing, we tried strayed away from 4-3-3 on occasion, and when Hanson and Ssewankambo completely disappeared from the first-team picture.

That looks like a manager trying to find as many points as possible as quickly as possible, rather than trying to build something that lasts. Mel Morris lives in fear of a repeat of the 07/08 season, and what did Paul Clement demonstrate to show he had any thought for Derby County beyond this coming May?

I believe Mel Morris when he says that Clement strayed too far from the job he was asked to do. I don't think he's lying. I just think he needs to be more honest and frank about the mistakes he made - he was signing cheques for all these players, and obviously that sends out the message to EVERYBODY that promotion is the aim this season at any cost. He should never have entered the dressing room, and shouldn't again. And he made a mistake in appointing the wrong person (although that is shared with Sam Rush).

But I do share his long-term vision for Derby, and from everything I've seen this season, I really believe that Clement had strayed way too far from that vision. The cynical side of me thinks Clement just wanted to get us promoted this season so he could move on to something better - did we really expect last year's assistant at Real Madrid to be handed £25 million to add to an already talented second tier squad and not see us as a springboard?