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Wolfie20

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3 hours ago, The Scarlet Pimpernel said:

With all due respect you still haven't got it. We haven't given up on this season nor are we giving up on next season. The aim is to improve performances and sustain that improvement until the level we play at ultimately gets us promotion. Get time frame out of your mind and think quality of performance. If we reach the desired quality this season Mel will be delighted. If it's next season or the season after so be it. The objective is to improve the performances. 

Now, after what we have seen this season on the pitch can you see why PC was sacked after 33 competitive games?

Quite patronising. I do understand that but I appreciate your knowledge of what I do/don't understand.

Thanks for your help.

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Very astute of Mel to manage our expectations. Strikes me he's seeing the dcfc project as his legacy. A bit like the way other business people establish "foundations" and so on. 

Although such a model is very appealing there are enormous tensions that ultimately arise when you put it inside an ultra-driven short term commercial setting like football. 

Not least as a pitch to players both here and potential who want riches quickly given their limited shelf life. And that usually equates to prem league and beyond. 

I can well imagine some of our current lot have been sold a somewhat different vision in terms of timescale to that which Mel is now clarifying. Hence I expect more short term turbulence to get a fully aligned squad. 

Assuming that we do make it at some point it will then be absolutely fascinating to see how the model copes with the much higher costs that tend to lock in when you are in the Premier league. Mel is very wealthy. But not infinitely so. Ultimately there are likely to be times when a stark choice emerges between principles and commercial pragmatism. 

Boiled down its like an nc 10 year plan with a bigger cash underpin.

How patient are we prepared to be lads?

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35 minutes ago, HantsRam said:

Very astute of Mel to manage our expectations. Strikes me he's seeing the dcfc project as his legacy. A bit like the way other business people establish "foundations" and so on. 

Although such a model is very appealing there are enormous tensions that ultimately arise when you put it inside an ultra-driven short term commercial setting like football. 

Not least as a pitch to players both here and potential who want riches quickly given their limited shelf life. And that usually equates to prem league and beyond. 

I can well imagine some of our current lot have been sold a somewhat different vision in terms of timescale to that which Mel is now clarifying. Hence I expect more short term turbulence to get a fully aligned squad. 

Assuming that we do make it at some point it will then be absolutely fascinating to see how the model copes with the much higher costs that tend to lock in when you are in the Premier league. Mel is very wealthy. But not infinitely so. Ultimately there are likely to be times when a stark choice emerges between principles and commercial pragmatism. 

Boiled down its like an nc 10 year plan with a bigger cash underpin.

How patient are we prepared to be lads?

We have got to be very patient it's football you aren't gifted it on a plate IV been patient for the last 50 years good and bad and I will tell you there as been some bloody bad but I'm still Derby through and through COYR

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2 hours ago, HantsRam said:

I can well imagine some of our current lot have been sold a somewhat different vision in terms of timescale to that which Mel is now clarifying. Hence I expect more short term turbulence to get a fully aligned squad. 

That's an interesting observation. Only have to think back to the contract extensions that Sam and Macca carried out after the play off disappointments. How the talk of Bryson and others were persuaded to stay because of ambition. Ok you can argue it was before Mels time, but the same core players are still here. Given as you say relative short term careers, is it just the money then that will keep them or do they have to readjust their goals? Because that's what Mel implies as most of that team were ambitious to go up.

Taking it forward, what about the new players signed last summer under Mel, sure they sign 3 or 4 year deals, somehow though I doubt Sam (or Mel) said we want you to come on board for 3 years but or goal is not to get promoted. You can play around with words as to how it's sold and what's said but you raise an interesting point in that, you would think as competitive sportsmen they would naturally want instant success? 

The short term goals of the players if truly ambitious may well be different to Mels sustainable or legacy vision as you put it.

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The thing I find most uneasy about all this is that if there is one thing we know about football there are no guarantees. 

It's hard to argue against Mel's vision, but we could spent three years building a beautiful side playing beautiful football, think we're all set and something goes wrong; a sale, an injury, a bad run of form, a lucky goal against. We've been there, very recently as well.

Morris talks like one guarantees the other. It doesn't. And beautiful teams don't automatically cut it in the PL. the PL and the Champ are totally different beasts.

We had the chance to do it this season, maybe not to everyone's tastes, but to do it nonetheless. We still do, under Darren Wassall, and my belief is that if you can get promotion you should, and worry about it after.

Sacking a manager who is fifth with 16 games to go simply because he isn't doing it your way still strikes me as odd. 

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I think we have to be carefull in what we read into things,, Mel Morris says we want to be playing good attacking entertaining football first and foremost and let that build us to promotion and sustainable prem status and is happy to be patient enough to build that ,,, we are then thinking he is saying we are giving up on promotion  for years,,, not so in my view ,,,, how close were we to that before clem came in? It's not like we are talking about a turgid side that needs a total rebuild and massive change in philosophy , it's a rolling thing , we needed to add wisely to enable us to carry on with what we were doing even through injuries and suspensions and gradually up the quality but let's be honest how many of us felt the team of the last two years at its best would be very close to holding its own in the prem and were a joy to watch , getting compliments from top football pundits? Bloody hell sky have been banging our door down to televise us live, they not doing that because we produced poor second rate football that's dire to watch and way below prem standard, I'm sure they fully believed clem to be a young dynamic cutting edge coach who would thrive on the chance to build a team to grace the prem and be admired for its exciting quality without the pressure of having to get instant results ,, you can't blame them I know I mentally traded off his total inexperience against those other perceived qualities,,,,, well that's not what we got is it, we got a negative backwards thinking coach who worried more about the opposition and wanted to scrape points anyway he could , for me Mel is not saying we don't want promotion as fast as we can get it, it's just get it in the right way ie if we have a coach who is getting performances heading the right way he's not going to sack him double quick because results hav nt caught up with those performances, how many people on here in the past have said they don't want us to go up cause we are not ready?

im even more sure now that we will get there because there will be a manager who will thrive on the opportunity Mel Morris is offering.

the season is not over,, it's just begun, clem did not turn out to be what we thought he could be , we have got rid and are on track again for our ultimate goal, a club on the up playing attractive football heading to the prem with the facilities and backing to get there and belong

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6 hours ago, Alpha said:

@Duracell has helped me down off my high horse. 

Still angry that the wag stories were all lies. Feel such a mug. How they made it so believable. 

Sometimes you just can't trust twitter and facebook

'Sometimes' is superfluous. They are the media of the vacuous, a place where everyone is permanently right - and always wrong.

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21 minutes ago, VulcanRam said:

 

Sacking a manager who is fifth with 16 games to go simply because he isn't doing it your way still strikes me as odd. 

if that was just it then I too would be confused.  Surely it is the dire performances that some of you have likened to more unpleasant than chewing tin foil.  You guys are supposed to be entertained when you watch our guys play.

the bit I don't get is that apparently PC wanted to do it his way because he wanted promotion this year.  Forgive me but PC's way was very unlikely to succeed with even playoffs in doubt

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2 minutes ago, Spanish said:

if that was just it then I too would be confused.  Surely it is the dire performances that some of you have likened to more unpleasant than chewing tin foil.  You guys are supposed to be entertained when you watch our guys play.

the bit I don't get is that apparently PC wanted to do it his way because he wanted promotion this year.  Forgive me but PC's way was very unlikely to succeed with even playoffs in doubt

I agree mate, the football has been dire the last few games, and hasn't been great all season. But 'hasn't been great' got us to the top of the league and even a month of being dire we're still in with a really good shout. So I'm not sure you can say it was "very unlikely to succeed".

It didn't look like things would improve but again, things change so quickly. A win against MK, renewed confidence and it might have done. We'll never know now. At various stages this season Boro, Hull and Burnley have looked awful and have looked like world beaters. 

The good news is that we're still in there. I wonder though what happens if we get up, though limping up and not playing amazing football, what Mel's take will be? He's made it perfectly clear that he doesn't want that. Presumably DW will be for the chop same as PC. 

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This is a unique situation I think. I can't recall a club doing what Mel has done for the same reason.

The Manager/Head Coach wants promotion at any cost, The Owner/Board wants to prioritise the style of football with promotion the ultimate goal rather than the other way round.

The more I think about it, the more outrageous it sounds. It goes against all conventional wisdom of Club owners wanting to maximise their investment by getting to the PL as quickly as possible, or even stay there by any means by employing Tony Pulis!

Mel is the sole owner. He has no outside backers or fellow directors to answer to - its his club, the club he has supported all his life. He's not in it to make money - he's made money and now he wants to leave a legacy.

Mel's no angel, he's probably a hard man to work for in some ways but he's made a bold move, a brave statement of intent of playing the right way and entertaining the fans.

If we believe (as I do) that Mel is not in it for the money then he's in it to see Derby playing decent football at the top level.

No hidden agenda, no bigging the club up to sell it at a profit.

How will it all end up? We haven't got a clue, but what a vision, what a position to be in.

 

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36 minutes ago, VulcanRam said:

I agree mate, the football has been dire the last few games, and hasn't been great all season. But 'hasn't been great' got us to the top of the league and even a month of being dire we're still in with a really good shout. So I'm not sure you can say it was "very unlikely to succeed".

It didn't look like things would improve but again, things change so quickly. A win against MK, renewed confidence and it might have done. We'll never know now. At various stages this season Boro, Hull and Burnley have looked awful and have looked like world beaters. 

The good news is that we're still in there. I wonder though what happens if we get up, though limping up and not playing amazing football, what Mel's take will be? He's made it perfectly clear that he doesn't want that. Presumably DW will be for the chop same as PC. 

I tend to view lets worry about next season when it happens!

as a half fan I defer to those of you with first hand experience but I can see nothing in 2016 that would lead me to the conclusion that we are on the cusp of a turnaround in fortunes, quite the opposite.  It has been a common theme that we should wait until the next game for the win, after Reading, well we will beat Birmingham; Brum well we will show Burnley; Burnley, very unlucky we will thrash PNE; Fulham our season restarts there.  How many more games should we wait for the improvement to arrive, just hope over experience.  Nothing I have read or seen makes me believe that if PC was here that MKD presented a great opportunity.  If the players don't get on that pitch 'on fire' and deliver an impressive performance against MKD then we are in trouble.  I think they will actually

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1 minute ago, Spanish said:

I tend to view lets worry about next season when it happens!

as a half fan I defer to those of you with first hand experience but I can see nothing in 2016 that would lead me to the conclusion that we are on the cusp of a turnaround in fortunes, quite the opposite.  It has been a common theme that we should wait until the next game for the win, after Reading, well we will beat Birmingham; Brum well we will show Burnley; Burnley, very unlucky we will thrash PNE; Fulham our season restarts there.  How many more games should we wait for the improvement to arrive, just hope over experience.  Nothing I have read or seen makes me believe that if PC was here that MKD presented a great opportunity.  If the players don't get on that pitch 'on fire' and deliver an impressive performance against MKD then we are in trouble.  I think they will actually

I definitely think we are in with a better shout now than we were before.

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15 hours ago, StaffsRam said:

Either that or the new Manager will need to work with what he has - it's a good squad, and with Hughes back, and hopefully a few Academy players starting to come through, it'll only get stronger. 

I thought it was the right decision yesterday, and I still do. The football has regressed, and the last time we were hell bent on promotion at any cost it took us another 5/6 years to repair the collateral damage.

I ways want to give any manager a good go at it (apart from Phil brown) but I had a bad feeling about how things would end up with PC as he produced non entertaining football as far as I can see and I pay my money to be entertained whatever league my team is in. But in reality he took a very good group of players which were reinforced well I thought in the summer ( not so well in the closing of the Windows) but made watching our Derby county painful to watch.

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15 hours ago, Duracell said:

I've had a hard time piecing it all together, until this snippet from BBC Sport:

" Up until the last couple of weeks we've been trying to work with Paul to get him to embrace the plans we set."

"He was the one who wanted promotion this season."

 

"We wanted to build on the squad, develop them, get on a rising tide of performance and let that carry us through into the Premier League - whether that was this season, next season or beyond. I think, for Paul, that was too long a view."

 

This completely changes the "he can be our Sir Alex" comment from Mel in November, for me.

 

I reckon that was when the start of the breakdown in the working relationship happened. Mel thinks Clement is becoming too focused on the results, and on promotion. The "short-term view" thing - think, why would a young manager want promotion so quickly?

 

At that point in November, Clement had a hat-trick of nominations for Manager of the Month. Derby were in a good run of form - the performances weren't scintillating, sure, but for a rookie manager, that's an impressive thing to have on your CV. He was being interviewed by national radio and national newspapers.This is an English young manager, matching expectations and handling pressure well in his first post, with a glowing reference from Carlo Ancellotti and experience working at Chelsea, PSG and Real Madrid (was anyone else getting a little sick of that?).

 

Put simply, if Paul Clement got Derby promoted, he is incredibly hot property. If there is one thing that's obvious from Clement's career, it's that he's bloody ambitious. The rewards for him on a professional level in getting us promoted this season was huge, and joining Derby County with a huge war chest from Mel Morris presented him with almost the perfect opportunity to keep his dramatic upwards career trajectory in motion.

 

Then you have Mel Morris. He sees a young manager who has an opportunity to grow with Derby County. Perhaps his comments in November citing SAF were about reminding Clement that this job is about building something which lasts for a long time. The football he wants is to build on the excitement of the past few seasons, with a more robust squad to help the cause.

 

Let me highlight something Morris said again - "Up until the last couple of weeks we've been trying to work with Paul to get him to embrace the plans we set." That changes Mel Morris' backing from "dear fans, this guy Paul Clement really could be our next Sir Alex Ferguson" to "Paul, listen to what I'm telling the fans - if you want it, you can grow something special with us, something akin to Ferguson at United. I won't sack you if we don't go up this season, so I'm giving you the time and resources to do it."

 

What I see now is two men whose working relationship became increasingly strained by working to different goals. Mel Morris, the owner and fan, who wants to see Derby County promoted and stay there, with a team full of local lads. Then there is Paul Clement, the ambitious young manager, with all this money to spend and a cracking opportunity to get a promotion on his CV in the first season of his first job.

 

Morris wants performances, improvement, and a team spirit - promotion follows.

 

Clement wants promotion. Everything else follows.

 

These two positions became irreconcilable, culminating in club which is being pulled in more than one direction. Interesting that Morris also implied that he was trying to get past their differences "up until the past couple of weeks." The last few weeks in particular have been the worst in terms of performances. Add to that rumours of unrest in the squad, and increasingly, something has to give way.

 

And in that situation, only one person was ever going to make way.

And that's that! Great post. 

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