Jump to content

Reflection


Wolfie20

Recommended Posts

It's now almost 24 hours since the news of Clements' dismissal broke. Like to probably the vast majority of supporters it came out of the blue - irrespective whether you thought the decision was right or wrong.

Those in the latter camp are unlikely to have had a change of heart but if you were of the view that a mistake had been made, are you still holding the same opinion?

My initial reaction was that despite a dismal run of form, Clements deserved to be given the opportunity to try and steady the ship, put things right and resume the challenge for automatic promotion. However, having listened to all the arguments for and against his sacking, I now think the correct decision has been made and we need to move forward. That won't be without reservations. Can Darren hold the fort until the end of the season and secure at the very least a playoff spot? Looking beyond DWs' period in charge, who is out there, available and fits the profile Mel is looking for - some of the suggestions fill me with horror? What sort of transfer budget will the next manager be given, bearing in mind what's been spent so far this season, a large slice of it with, to date, minimal return? Despite these concerns I now think the correct decision was made even though it could be another 18 months before we are likely to know the outcome.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 86
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Either that or the new Manager will need to work with what he has - it's a good squad, and with Hughes back, and hopefully a few Academy players starting to come through, it'll only get stronger. 

I thought it was the right decision yesterday, and I still do. The football has regressed, and the last time we were hell bent on promotion at any cost it took us another 5/6 years to repair the collateral damage.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've had a hard time piecing it all together, until this snippet from BBC Sport:

" Up until the last couple of weeks we've been trying to work with Paul to get him to embrace the plans we set."

"He was the one who wanted promotion this season."

 

"We wanted to build on the squad, develop them, get on a rising tide of performance and let that carry us through into the Premier League - whether that was this season, next season or beyond. I think, for Paul, that was too long a view."

 

This completely changes the "he can be our Sir Alex" comment from Mel in November, for me.

 

I reckon that was when the start of the breakdown in the working relationship happened. Mel thinks Clement is becoming too focused on the results, and on promotion. The "short-term view" thing - think, why would a young manager want promotion so quickly?

 

At that point in November, Clement had a hat-trick of nominations for Manager of the Month. Derby were in a good run of form - the performances weren't scintillating, sure, but for a rookie manager, that's an impressive thing to have on your CV. He was being interviewed by national radio and national newspapers.This is an English young manager, matching expectations and handling pressure well in his first post, with a glowing reference from Carlo Ancellotti and experience working at Chelsea, PSG and Real Madrid (was anyone else getting a little sick of that?).

 

Put simply, if Paul Clement got Derby promoted, he is incredibly hot property. If there is one thing that's obvious from Clement's career, it's that he's bloody ambitious. The rewards for him on a professional level in getting us promoted this season was huge, and joining Derby County with a huge war chest from Mel Morris presented him with almost the perfect opportunity to keep his dramatic upwards career trajectory in motion.

 

Then you have Mel Morris. He sees a young manager who has an opportunity to grow with Derby County. Perhaps his comments in November citing SAF were about reminding Clement that this job is about building something which lasts for a long time. The football he wants is to build on the excitement of the past few seasons, with a more robust squad to help the cause.

 

Let me highlight something Morris said again - "Up until the last couple of weeks we've been trying to work with Paul to get him to embrace the plans we set." That changes Mel Morris' backing from "dear fans, this guy Paul Clement really could be our next Sir Alex Ferguson" to "Paul, listen to what I'm telling the fans - if you want it, you can grow something special with us, something akin to Ferguson at United. I won't sack you if we don't go up this season, so I'm giving you the time and resources to do it."

 

What I see now is two men whose working relationship became increasingly strained by working to different goals. Mel Morris, the owner and fan, who wants to see Derby County promoted and stay there, with a team full of local lads. Then there is Paul Clement, the ambitious young manager, with all this money to spend and a cracking opportunity to get a promotion on his CV in the first season of his first job.

 

Morris wants performances, improvement, and a team spirit - promotion follows.

 

Clement wants promotion. Everything else follows.

 

These two positions became irreconcilable, culminating in club which is being pulled in more than one direction. Interesting that Morris also implied that he was trying to get past their differences "up until the past couple of weeks." The last few weeks in particular have been the worst in terms of performances. Add to that rumours of unrest in the squad, and increasingly, something has to give way.

 

And in that situation, only one person was ever going to make way.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That about sums up my feelings, i wanted to give PC time but the football has been tripe.So i find myself now thinking it's for the best and maybe the season could get exciting again as we enter the unknown. We have to get behind Mel,DW and the lads now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Duracell said:

I've had a hard time piecing it all together, until this snippet from BBC Sport:

" Up until the last couple of weeks we've been trying to work with Paul to get him to embrace the plans we set."

"He was the one who wanted promotion this season."

 

"We wanted to build on the squad, develop them, get on a rising tide of performance and let that carry us through into the Premier League - whether that was this season, next season or beyond. I think, for Paul, that was too long a view."

 

This completely changes the "he can be our Sir Alex" comment from Mel in November, for me.

 

I reckon that was when the start of the breakdown in the working relationship happened. Mel thinks Clement is becoming too focused on the results, and on promotion. The "short-term view" thing - think, why would a young manager want promotion so quickly?

 

At that point in November, Clement had a hat-trick of nominations for Manager of the Month. Derby were in a good run of form - the performances weren't scintillating, sure, but for a rookie manager, that's an impressive thing to have on your CV. He was being interviewed by national radio and national newspapers.This is a English young manager, matching expectations and handling pressure well in his first post, with a glowing reference from Carlo Ancellotti and experience working at Chelsea, PSG and Real Madrid (was anyone else getting a little sick of that?).

 

Put simply, if Paul Clement got Derby promoted, he is incredibly hot property. If there is one thing that's obvious from Clement's career, it's that he's bloody ambitious. The rewards for him on a professional level in getting us promoted this season was huge, and joining Derby County with a huge war chest from Mel Morris presented him with almost the perfect opportunity to keep his dramatic upwards career trajectory in motion.

 

Then you have Mel Morris. He sees a young manager who has an opportunity to grow with Derby County. Perhaps his comments in November citing SAF were about reminding Clement that this job is about building something which lasts for a long time. The football he wants is to build on the excitement of the past few seasons, with a more robust squad to help the cause.

 

Let me highlight something Morris said again - "Up until the last couple of weeks we've been trying to work with Paul to get him to embrace the plans we set." That changes Mel Morris' backing from "dear fans, this guy Paul Clement really good be our next Sir Alex Ferguson" to "Paul, listen to what I'm telling the fans - if you want it, you can grow something special with us, something akin to Ferguson at United. I won't sack you if we don't go up this season, so I'm giving you the time and resources to do it."

 

What I see now is two men whose working relationship became increasingly strained by working to different goals. Mel Morris, the owner and fan, who wants to see Derby County promoted and stay there, with a team full of local lads. Then there is Paul Clement, the ambitious young manager, with all this money to spend and a cracking opportunity to get a promotion on his CV in the first season of his first job.

 

Morris wants performances, improvement, and a team spirit - promotion follows.

 

Clement wants promotion. Everything else follows.

 

These two positions became irreconcilable, culminating in club which is being pulled in more than one direction. Interesting that Morris also implied that he was trying to get past their differences "up until the past couple of weeks." The last few weeks in particular have been the worst in terms of performances. Add to that rumours of unrest in the squad, and increasingly, something has to give way.

 

And in that situation, only one person was ever going to make way.

Think you might have hit the nail on the head there

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Duracell said:

I've had a hard time piecing it all together, until this snippet from BBC Sport:

" Up until the last couple of weeks we've been trying to work with Paul to get him to embrace the plans we set."

"He was the one who wanted promotion this season."

 

"We wanted to build on the squad, develop them, get on a rising tide of performance and let that carry us through into the Premier League - whether that was this season, next season or beyond. I think, for Paul, that was too long a view."

 

This completely changes the "he can be our Sir Alex" comment from Mel in November, for me.

 

I reckon that was when the start of the breakdown in the working relationship happened. Mel thinks Clement is becoming too focused on the results, and on promotion. The "short-term view" thing - think, why would a young manager want promotion so quickly?

 

At that point in November, Clement had a hat-trick of nominations for Manager of the Month. Derby were in a good run of form - the performances weren't scintillating, sure, but for a rookie manager, that's an impressive thing to have on your CV. He was being interviewed by national radio and national newspapers.

This is a English young manager, matching expectations and handling pressure well in his first post, with a glowing reference from Carlo Ancellotti and experience working at Chelsea, PSG and Real Madrid (was anyone else getting a little sick of that?).

 

Put simply, if Paul Clement got Derby promoted, he is incredibly hot property. If there is one thing that's obvious from Clement's career, it's that he's bloody ambitious. The rewards for him on a professional level in getting us promoted this season was huge, and joining Derby County with a huge war chest from Mel Morris presented him with almost the perfect opportunity to keep his dramatic upwards career trajectory in motion.

 

Then you have Mel Morris. He sees a young manager who has an opportunity to grow with Derby County. Perhaps his comments in November citing SAF were about reminding Clement that this job is about building something which lasts for a long time. The football he wants is to build on the excitement of the past few seasons, with a more robust squad to help the cause.

 

Let me highlight something Morris said again - "Up until the last couple of weeks we've been trying to work with Paul to get him to embrace the plans we set." That changes Mel Morris' backing from "dear fans, this guy Paul Clement really good be our next Sir Alex Ferguson" to "Paul, listen to what I'm telling the fans - if you want it, you can grow something special with us, something akin to Ferguson at United. I won't sack you if we don't go up this season, so I'm giving you the time and resources to do it."

 

What I see now is two men whose working relationship became increasingly strained by working to different goals. Mel Morris, the owner and fan, who wants to see Derby County promoted and stay there, with a team full of local lads. Then there is Paul Clement, the ambitious young manager, with all this money to spend and a cracking opportunity to get a promotion on his CV in the first season of his first job.

 

Morris wants performances, improvement, and a team spirit - promotion follows.

 

Clement wants promotion. Everything else follows.

 

These two positions became irreconcilable, culminating in club which is being pulled in more than one direction. Interesting that Morris also implied that he was trying to get past their differences "up until the past couple of weeks." The last few weeks in particular have been the worst in terms of performances. Add to that rumours of unrest in the squad, and increasingly, something has to give way.

 

And in that situation, only one person was ever going to make way.

What a fantastic, thorough analysis. 

 

 

Who wrote it for you?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

26 minutes ago, StaffsRam said:

Either that or the new Manager will need to work with what he has - it's a good squad, and with Hughes back, and hopefully a few Academy players starting to come through, it'll only get stronger. 

I thought it was the right decision yesterday, and I still do. The football has regressed, and the last time we were hell bent on promotion at any cost it took us another 5/6 years to repair the collateral damage.

Sorry Staffs I disagree it's a big squad not a good squad .I do think we delude ourselves on this ,we have quality sure but its not across the board.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Duracell said:

Let me highlight something Morris said again - "Up until the last couple of weeks we've been trying to work with Paul to get him to embrace the plans we set." 

 

These two positions became irreconcilable, culminating in club which is being pulled in more than one direction. Interesting that Morris also implied that he was trying to get past their differences "up until the past couple of weeks." The last few weeks in particular have been the worst in terms of performances. Add to that rumours of unrest in the squad, and increasingly, something has to give way.

 

And in that situation, only one person was ever going to make way.

Think you are real close there Duracell. 

Starting to believe it was simply two different mindsets and I also wanted Clement to have more time and succeed. But maybe Mel couldn't see the longer term sustainable plan happening, so maybe he also just said you're unlikely to succeed in your plan and I'm not seeing what we agreed, time to move on.

Only thing that leaves me flat he sounds a little defeatist in the interview, when we are still in a great position; just odd not to want promotion, but I'm putting some of that down to P.R spin.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wow must be nice to accept any bulshit the club puts out,No one can justify a major major decision by a club,

to appoint a person with the responsibility of taking a club like Derby County forward.

 And then say i got it wrong,after 8 months,Decision making is the key to running a football club,and  to  pay out millions in contract settlements,is a poor show

I do hope this is Mels money and not a bad investment by the club,The last two years are a joke,and brilliant P-R  for Forest fans

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Wolfie20 said:

It's now almost 24 hours since the news of Clements' dismissal broke. Like to probably the vast majority of supporters it came out of the blue - irrespective whether you thought the decision was right or wrong.

Those in the latter camp are unlikely to have had a change of heart but if you were of the view that a mistake had been made, are you still holding the same opinion?

My initial reaction was that despite a dismal run of form, Clements deserved to be given the opportunity to try and steady the ship, put things right and resume the challenge for automatic promotion. However, having listened to all the arguments for and against his sacking, I now think the correct decision has been made and we need to move forward. That won't be without reservations. Can Darren hold the fort until the end of the season and secure at the very least a playoff spot? Looking beyond DWs' period in charge, who is out there, available and fits the profile Mel is looking for - some of the suggestions fill me with horror? What sort of transfer budget will the next manager be given, bearing in mind what's been spent so far this season, a large slice of it with, to date, minimal return? Despite these concerns I now think the correct decision was made even though it could be another 18 months before we are likely to know the outcome.

I get this, and agree, but us fans seeing 25mill spent, watching entertaining horror shows like last season repeated again, mid table finish with a couple of youths progressing, would we fans got PC the sack, or was he on a mission impossible???

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, trevor1946 said:

Wow must be nice to accept any bulshit the club puts out,No one can justify a major major decision by a club,

to appoint a person with the responsibility of taking a club like Derby County forward.

 And then say i got it wrong,after 8 months,Decision making is the key to running a football club,and  to  pay out millions in contract settlements,is a poor show

I do hope this is Mels money and not a bad investment by the club,The last two years are a joke,and brilliant P-R  for Forest fans

Couldn't care less what forest fans think.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, King Kevin said:

Sorry Staffs I disagree it's a big squad not a good squad .I do think we delude ourselves on this ,we have quality sure but its not across the board.

See, to me, I think we had a decent squad last season, and the season before that. It lacked depth which is utimately what cost us, last season in particular. Adding Carson, Shackell, Butterfield and Johnson alone to that improved it. I also think that the likes of Baird and Pearce could have been decent squad players as well if they weren't either banged into different shaped holes or discarded altogether in Pearce's case. 

For the squad that PC inherited, and what we added to it, we should have been playing a lot better style of football than what we have been doing. Too cautious, negative defensive, however you want to phrase it, it was just a massive backwards step that doesn't suit the players and squad that we have.

Not denying that we couldn't do with shipping a few out though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, StaffsRam said:

See, to me, I think we had a decent squad last season, and the season before that. It lacked depth which is utimately what cost us, last season in particular. Adding Carson, Shackell, Butterfield and Johnson alone to that improved it. I also think that the likes of Baird and Pearce could have been decent squad players as well if they weren't either banged into different shaped holes or discarded altogether in Pearce's case. 

For the squad that PC inherited, and what we added to it, we should have been playing a lot better style of football than what we have been doing. Too cautious, negative defensive, however you want to phrase it, it was just a massive backwards step that doesn't suit the players and squad that we have.

Not denying that we couldn't do with shipping a few out though.

Agreed that is a fair comment ,I would have bought less quantity and more quality for all the additions we have poor cover for Thorne [still ] and only just addressed the LB position .

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Duracell has actually made me feel a little more positive about the decision. At first I thought it was knee-jerk and really wasn't happy. Now I can sort of understand the decision and that it may have been for the best.

I really hope we haven't given up on this season with the Wassall appointment though. That's nothing against him, it's just that he isn't going to be the one Mel will look to to take us forward. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Duracell said:

I've had a hard time piecing it all together, until this snippet from BBC Sport:

" Up until the last couple of weeks we've been trying to work with Paul to get him to embrace the plans we set."

"He was the one who wanted promotion this season."

 

"We wanted to build on the squad, develop them, get on a rising tide of performance and let that carry us through into the Premier League - whether that was this season, next season or beyond. I think, for Paul, that was too long a view."

 

This completely changes the "he can be our Sir Alex" comment from Mel in November, for me.

 

I reckon that was when the start of the breakdown in the working relationship happened. Mel thinks Clement is becoming too focused on the results, and on promotion. The "short-term view" thing - think, why would a young manager want promotion so quickly?

 

At that point in November, Clement had a hat-trick of nominations for Manager of the Month. Derby were in a good run of form - the performances weren't scintillating, sure, but for a rookie manager, that's an impressive thing to have on your CV. He was being interviewed by national radio and national newspapers.This is an English young manager, matching expectations and handling pressure well in his first post, with a glowing reference from Carlo Ancellotti and experience working at Chelsea, PSG and Real Madrid (was anyone else getting a little sick of that?).

 

Put simply, if Paul Clement got Derby promoted, he is incredibly hot property. If there is one thing that's obvious from Clement's career, it's that he's bloody ambitious. The rewards for him on a professional level in getting us promoted this season was huge, and joining Derby County with a huge war chest from Mel Morris presented him with almost the perfect opportunity to keep his dramatic upwards career trajectory in motion.

 

Then you have Mel Morris. He sees a young manager who has an opportunity to grow with Derby County. Perhaps his comments in November citing SAF were about reminding Clement that this job is about building something which lasts for a long time. The football he wants is to build on the excitement of the past few seasons, with a more robust squad to help the cause.

 

Let me highlight something Morris said again - "Up until the last couple of weeks we've been trying to work with Paul to get him to embrace the plans we set." That changes Mel Morris' backing from "dear fans, this guy Paul Clement really could be our next Sir Alex Ferguson" to "Paul, listen to what I'm telling the fans - if you want it, you can grow something special with us, something akin to Ferguson at United. I won't sack you if we don't go up this season, so I'm giving you the time and resources to do it."

 

What I see now is two men whose working relationship became increasingly strained by working to different goals. Mel Morris, the owner and fan, who wants to see Derby County promoted and stay there, with a team full of local lads. Then there is Paul Clement, the ambitious young manager, with all this money to spend and a cracking opportunity to get a promotion on his CV in the first season of his first job.

 

Morris wants performances, improvement, and a team spirit - promotion follows.

 

Clement wants promotion. Everything else follows.

 

These two positions became irreconcilable, culminating in club which is being pulled in more than one direction. Interesting that Morris also implied that he was trying to get past their differences "up until the past couple of weeks." The last few weeks in particular have been the worst in terms of performances. Add to that rumours of unrest in the squad, and increasingly, something has to give way.

 

And in that situation, only one person was ever going to make way.

This excellent piece, beautifully expresses my feelings on the matter.

Mels interview and statement sums up what many of us feel. We just want to start enjoying watching Derby again.

Would I rather watch Man City or Chelsea with their attendant success over the past few years, or Arsenal, with their catalogue of near misses? No-brainer for me guys.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Kernow said:

@Duracell has actually made me feel a little more positive about the decision. At first I thought it was knee-jerk and really wasn't happy. Now I can sort of understand the decision and that it may have been for the best.

I really hope we haven't given up on this season with the Wassall appointment though. That's nothing against him, it's just that he isn't going to be the one Mel will look to to take us forward. 

With all due respect you still haven't got it. We haven't given up on this season nor are we giving up on next season. The aim is to improve performances and sustain that improvement until the level we play at ultimately gets us promotion. Get time frame out of your mind and think quality of performance. If we reach the desired quality this season Mel will be delighted. If it's next season or the season after so be it. The objective is to improve the performances. 

Now, after what we have seen this season on the pitch can you see why PC was sacked after 33 competitive games?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Last season things went badly and we stuck by our manager, we missed out on the play offs and the ownership were criticised for not taking action at the time.

 

12 months on and we see a dip in form, this time the owner takes action, he gets criticised for taking action.

 

You could argue the circumstances are different, one a manager who's head was turned and the other a new manager who appears to have lost the winning formula. The reality is that the football in recent weeks has been similar to that played under Clough, very negative, slow build up from the back and keep possession rather than having an attempt on goal. We are 5 points plus game(s) in hand behind, therefore arguably 11 points off top spot with the worst points haul in the league since the start of 2016, that quite simply us not good enough.

 

On reflection I believe Mel gas made the right decision although my first reaction was that it was a bit harsh.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...