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Different players for different formations


sage

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It would seem that our plan A is a 4-3-3 similar to last year with a couple of tactical variations and plan B is a 4-4-2 diamond.

Now it strikes me that some players will suit one system more than the other. 

I think we can discount a system switch affecting our keeper and centre backs. Under the 4-4-2 there is a little extra pressure on the full backs to offer width which favours Christie and Ssewankambo over Baird at RB and Forsyth over Warnock at LB.

Our DCM selection shouldn't be altered unless we sign a DCM with significantly higher speed and stamina such as Bridcutt as Baird and Thorne when fit will have similar mobility levels. 

This moves us onto the LCM and RCM. In a diamond system these players will have to cover even more ground than they do in a 4-3-3. This could be used as an argument for Bryson and Hendrick over Hughes, though Will grew into the role v Utrecht. 

That leaves the front 3, who will be affected most. In the 4-3-3 Martin or Bent will be flanked by Ince and either Russell or Weimann. Under the old 4-3-3 i would have suggested Martin all day over Bent, but the tactical tweak within this system now means Bent is more able to play there, though I would still choose Martin personally.

Under the 4-4-2 diamond Ince seems nailed on to play the tip of the diamond though Hughes and Martin could also play this role. In this 4-4-2 you play with split strikers who run the channels with their median (get me) start position being between the side of the box and the side of the 6 yard box. These split striker roles work best with mobile, darting players, often those who can play up front or on the wing like Russell and Weimann rather than Bent or Martin. Bent looked all at sea in this role and though Martin looks trimmer and quicker it's still not natural to him.

Therefore our 4-4-2 which finally lets us play 2 centre forwards doesn't really suit our two main centre forwards and could leave our young playmaker possibly sidelined by runners.     

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In any formation it's always Martin over Bent for me. I don't see how Bent is going to get a start. 

You know with the diamond, does the idea of Hughes and/or Hendrick covering opposition full back runs not worry you? A genuine question because I just can't imagine those two will enjoy chasing fullbacks half the afternoon. 

Also, with those two covering the flanks what happens to the middle. Ince has to cover a midfielder (assuming most our opponents play with 2+ central midfielders).

So out of possession it basically turns into a flat 442 with Ince in the middle and Hughes/Hendrick/Bryson wide??

Hope it looks better than it reads. 

 

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That leaves the front 3, who will be affected most. In the 4-3-3 Martin or Bent will be flanked by Ince and either Russell or Weimann. Under the old 4-3-3 i would have suggested Martin all day over Bent, but the tactical tweak within this system now means Bent is more able to play there, though I would still choose Martin personally.

What 'tactical tweak' are you referring to and why does this make Bent more able to play there?

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What 'tactical tweak' are you referring to and why does this make Bent more able to play there?

The tactical tweak which would help accommodate Bent is the plan for the 2 wide men to tuck more centrally into an old fashioned inside forward position with the RCM and LCM offering more width to both cover the full backs and provide crosses into the box for 3 forwards when we are attacking. How often they intend to do this and in what scenario is unclear, but when they do do it will enable Bent to concentrate on receiving the final pass in an attack and not having to engage in build up play.

Indeed the scenario in which we adopt this tactic may be if Martin is unavailable. 

 

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As we know PC has already said that we have to adopt to different systems, those systems will I reckon be used week in & week out depending who we are playing against.

Whether its a 4-3-3, 4-2-2 and even 3-5-2

PC will have identified the weaknesses within our team and squad and so we now have an influx of new players in [with possibly 1 or 2 more to come in  - it also means 1 or 2 will be going........]

This is very positive by PC, I just hope everybody gels.....

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Starting to look like we will have a formation for any eventuality on paper. Let us hope that it works in practice. It is so obvious that players who cannot make the necessary adjustments will be moving on to other clubs. Any Derby player who can adjust to these different formations will clearly increase in transfer value. It already looks like Christie, Warnock and particularly Bryson are starting to improve under Clement.

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Living out here in Indonesia get little chance to see anything but highlights on this forum and DCFC.

Good to hear those three are improving after last season, lets just hope PC knows what he wants to do and who is capable of doing it on match days then it could be a very good season. Fester's points total could then be seriously threatened.

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Just a lot of info to take on board. 

Nothing makes you more uncomfortable than not knowing exactly what your job is. You work towards perfecting that job. Not only that but getting in shape becomes natural and you come to know the roles and movements of the whole team. You know everyone's job. 

Could take a really long time for everyone to start being the best at their role. It's a steep learning curve.

That's why you don't see any successful team chopping and changing every week. That's why they "get figured out" and yet still continue to be successful. They have players that know their jobs and it's just a case of going out and doing them. Identifying weakness becomes easy when players just aren't ticking all the boxes in their roles. 

Football has a telepathy about it. It's great if you can keep mixing things up. You can't though easily. Every player grows into a role. 

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The problem with differing formations is not all the players are going to be suited to their specific role, it makes recruitment harder or in some cases forces a scattergun approach.

At least when you have one system, you can identify which players are needed for each speciific role and work to it like that. Recruitment is easier, pinpointing sepcific needs and highlighting weaknesses is easier.

I don't buy this need to change systems when 'Plan A' doesn't work. That's illogical, and no decent team would ever make radical chancges to a team when losing one game.

You don't see Swansea City saying 'we've been found out' when they lose their yearly home match to Everton, prompting a complete change from their 4-3-3 to some wacky diamond formation.

No, they brush themselves down, work on strengthening what they have and go again.

I don't want to be negative here, but if we continue to change systems, I can only see confusion happening and arguably a number of players getting frustrated at not being able to nail down a specific role and work on it.

I'm telling you now, footballers don't enjoy being deployed in a number of different positions/roles. Ask any 'versatile' player and they'll always say they'd like a run of games at one specific position.

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Change of shape happens extremely frequently in top flight games.

Change of personnel I agree, change of shape I don't think so. How many times did Chelsea use two up top last season? Sure a team can drop deeper, push wingers wider or more narrow - but a change in system? Rarely.

One team who did though was Leicester, and they almost paid for it. Wasn't until the end of the season with a settled side did they finally start getting the results.

 

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The better the players AND the better their understanding as a team, the less fixed a system needs to be.

 I think we nailed ourselves too much to the 4-3-3 last season, so I'm glad to see more notions being played with. Also, I think the forwards we have now mean we can play effective 2 up top in a number of combinations with or without martin. Happy days.

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The better the players AND the better their understanding as a team, the less fixed a system needs to be.

 I think we nailed ourselves too much to the 4-3-3 last season, so I'm glad to see more notions being played with. Also, I think the forwards we have now mean we can play effective 2 up top in a number of combinations with or without martin. Happy days.

We only nailed ourselves too much to 4-3-3 when we no longer had the players to make it work.  

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Exactly. What went wrong for us was our system needed a defensive midfielder and a striker to play into and then off. We had neither. 

Our whole system was built on fast minimal touch passing after we'd had the 6 passes Mac wanted the team to have before kicking on. I assume he feels 6 or so passes is the number to control possession and settle on the ball before springing forward. Thing is it became 10. It became slow. 

We never had a problem with Plan A until we started worrying about clean sheets and control more than doing what worked for us. Even then we were still very strong. Then came the injuries and we got lost then. 

Just taking a diamond and Will Hughes for one example. Will knows how to operate with Hendrick, Bryson and Thorne in a 433. He knows how to be that middle player in the sort of staggered 3. He knows the where and when. Put him on the left of a diamond and that changes. He has to figure his distances again. What width to offer. His marking and tracking will change completely. His partnership with Thorne won't even be the same because as the widest midfielder he has to support a fullback. His partnership with Hendrick, Bryson will pretty much vanish defensively. On the ball he won't have a winger to go to. All his passing options will be inside. All his space will change with the new movement of the team.

Not that it's a bad way to play. It's just different and a role that he'll want to learn. That will take a little bit of time to just understand what he needs to do in a diamond. Which again is fine. But then you're introducing other systems on top of that? So he could be playing that role twice in a week or once in a month. 

I suppose I'm making it sound like he's learning rocket science when really it's just him needing to adapt a few things. But this is the same for all players and thus it becomes a bigger issue of a team learning what works and what doesn't in a system they don't play every week

McClaren tried a diamond at Burton away and it looked rubbish. He switched to 433 and the team instantly hit their stride (for a pre season friendly). 

Not saying I know better than Clement. I wouldn't have clue how to communicate ideas to footballers. All i'm saying is from a player perspective you grow into a role and begin to take on all the responsibilities of it with more and more ease. You get help where you need it. 

To have multiple roles to learn is a steep learning curve.

Clement said himself "it will go into the season". 

All I'm saying is its perhaps best to add some caution to the optimism that the team will have all the answers because we have a coach that has a plan A-Z. 

The worst thing Nigel ever did and where I lost a large amount of faith was when he abandoned 4231 because it took a couple of beatings. It had promise that did. It wasn't perfect and neither were the players. But it was a nice fit. Lots of promise to work on. 

Then we switched to Plan B. Then C. Then all the way to survival mode percentage 442 to try and pick up enough points to see us through. He was onto something and he abandoned it for Luke Moore and short term gain

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